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Phalanx2000
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Dallas Tejas
Dec 2000
time: 05:14
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Ignore my last post, i am ignorant... I didn't realize you did the N. America one only
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Phalanx2000
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Dallas Tejas
Dec 2000
time: 05:14
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Ignore my last post, i am ignorant... I didn't realize you did the N. America one only
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wheathin
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Wes, couple of things:
1. Great idea with the negative values. By combining them with a static upkeep value (positive or negative) you can get an even greater range of maintenance costs. Example: power plants have a high fixed cost - the plant itself, and then a low per-user cost. SoO maybe a 50 gold fixed maint cost, plus 1 gold per citizen?
2. Negative values can be useful in other aspects of the game as well: negative science for slaves (I don't know if CtP2 uses a Pop.txt file like CtP did) to mimic the real-world effects of slavery. Negative food values for glacier/polar/tundra terrains might be a way to have those areas provide less fertile ground for coastal cities, offsetting the productivity of the ubiquitous beach tiles. (Weighted such that a city founded on or near a glacier tile would have to have beach or other productive terrain in 6, 7, or 8 surrounding tiles in order to grow? - I'm talkin' large penalties here...)
3. Have the militia units have increasing vision ranges. In CtP I adjusted the vision range of the Musketeer and later militia units to have 3 or 4 square vision ranges, effectively increasing the visibility radius around my cities as time progressed.
4. Finally, I would be worried about the effect of repair costs on the AI. If it is too high, the AI might end up bleeding production and not realize it. There would certainly be no way for the AI to decide *NOT* to repair a unit because it is running low on production. More than anything, this would necessitate large roduction bonuses for the AI.
5. Related: make sure units are only repaired to the current readiness setting for the unit.
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WesW
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Florence, Al., USA
Jan 1970
time: 23:14
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Martock, you will be happy to know that I have replaced the Ctp2 Fusion Tank with the Ctp1 version. I am going to use the Ctp2 version as the Diamond age Mounted Artillery (Ranged) unit. I plan to use the Ctp1 Space Marines as the Diamond Age Marine unit, called Storm Marines.The Ctp1 War Walker will be in the mod as well.
Wheathin, there are settings in the files pretaining to AI public works and so-forth. I feel confident that we can get the AIs adjusted to handle the new trigger properly. This is going to be such a big change to the game, it will be worth whatever effort it takes to implement it. Seriously, if we get this going, it would be worthy of some press in the strategy gaming community, though that stuff doesn't happen with fan-created mods as far as I know. I mean, if this feature was part of the standard game, I think that Activision could, or should, have promoted it as one of the most significant innovations in the game.
With the game as it is now, once you get a tech advantage and start taking cities with your units barely surviving, you can wait one turn, and it's like you suffered no casualties at all. This is completely unrealistic, as we all know.
If you start having to choose between healing hurt units and building other things, or simply not having enough production to immediately heal your units after a large battle, it is going to cause major changes in how the game is played. Think about how this trigger would affect something like the Alexander scenario, or notice how it would affect you the next time you go into conquest mode.
I am in the middle of semester exams this week, so I will have to slow down on the mod for a few days. However, I am through with school next Tuesday, so I hope to really get things going then. I plan to keep tinkering with things, and throw out some polls and such on the forums, to try and get specific ideas on new terrain values and a couple of other things. If someone wanted to throw some things out on their own, that would be great too.
One thing: I wish someone would take some time to look at the diplomacy files which contain the AI replies, and see if they could be altered to fit the situation. Right now, all you get is "offer accepted" and "offer rejected". If someone could customize the messages to reflect why the AI decided as it did, it would address one of the main gripes people are having with the game.
I may start a thread about this on the general forum to see if it can be done, hoping to get one of the Actigrammers to respond. (If someone else wants to start the thread instead, be my guest.)
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WesW
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Florence, Al., USA
Jan 1970
time: 23:14
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Yes, I plan to leave the hovering ability in.
I have spent today thinking about units: unit names, abilities, wonder units and so-forth. What I have come up with is really exciting. Below I have pasted a version of the unit build list text which I am using to try and keep track of everything.
Notes: TD- Tom Davies' unit, HT- Harlan Thompson unit, Wonder unit- enabled by building a wonder, Advance unit- enabled by being the first to get an advance, wonder militia unit- second type of militia unit created in all your cities, Alexander & Mag. Samurai- unit is from one of those scenarios.
Special Abilities:
Mongol Horsemen will have both ranged attack and flanking attack.
Ctp1 War Walker will be an all-around offensive and anti-air unit.
AT-Artillery stands for All-Terrain Artillery, and uses the Ctp2 War Walker sprite. This unit will be able to move on any terrain, including Mountains and Undersea, as will Storm Marines. This way, you can have combined-arms assaults on undersea cities.
Hover Infantry will be able to cross shallow water.
I am still thinking up stuff, so feel free to make suggestions, though please write a short passage on why your idea is an improvement over the current setup.
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_DEFENSE {
Unit UNIT_SPEARMAN
Unit UNIT_PHALANX
Unit UNIT_LEGION (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_PIKEMEN
Unit UNIT_ARQUEBUSIER (TD, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MUSKETEER (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_INFANTRYMAN
Unit UNIT_MACHINE_GUNNER
Unit UNIT_PLASMATICA (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_LEVIATHON
}
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_OFFENSE {
Unit UNIT_WARRIOR (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_SWORDSMAN (TD)
Unit UNIT_HOPLITE (CTP1, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HEAVY_SWORDSMAN (ALEXANDER PHALANX)
Unit UNIT_BERSERKER (TD HUSCARL, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MAN_AT_ARMS (CTP2 WARRIOR)
Unit UNIT_SAMURAI (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MUSKETEER (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_INFANTRYMAN
Unit UNIT_FASCIST
Unit UNIT_HOVER_INFANTRY
}
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_RANGED {
Unit UNIT_SLINGER (TD)
Unit UNIT_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_LONGBOWMEN (ALEX, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_CATAPULT
Unit UNIT_BOMBARD (TD, WONDER MILITIA UNIT)
Unit UNIT_CULVERIN (CTP2 CANNON)
Unit UNIT_CANNON (CTP1 CANNON)
Unit UNIT_ARTILLERY (CTP1 ARTILLERY)
Unit UNIT_AT_ARTILLERY (CTP2 WAR WALKER)
}
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_MOUNTED_RANGED {
Unit UNIT_JAVELINEER (EB ZULU ARCHER)
Unit UNIT_MOUNTED_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_BANDIT_HORSEMEN (ALEX, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HORSE ARCHER (HT)
Unit UNIT_SELF_PROP_GUN (CTP2 ARTILLERY)
Unit UNIT_FUSION_TANK (CTP2 UNIT, RE-NAMED "PLASMA CANNON")
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_MOUNTED_FLANKER {
Unit UNIT_ZULU_WARRIOR (EB, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_LIGHT_CAVALRY (TD JAVELIN CAV.)
Unit UNIT_ELEPHANT (ALEXANDER, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HEAVY_CAVALRY (TD NOBLE CAV.)
Unit UNIT_KNIGHT
Unit UNIT_DRAGOON (CTP1 CAVALRY)
Unit UNIT_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_TANK
Unit UNIT_WAR_WALKER (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HOVERTANK (CTP1 FUSION TANK)
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_MARINE {
Unit UNIT_MARINE
Unit UNIT_STORM_MARINE (CTP1 SPACE MARINES)
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_PARATROOPER {
Unit UNIT_PARATROOPER
Unit UNIT_SWARM (CTP1 UNIT)
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_ANTI_AIR {
Unit UNIT_MOBILE_SAM
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_NAVAL_ATTACK {
Unit UNIT_TRIREME (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_FIRE_TRIREME (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_CARRACK
Unit UNIT_PRIVATEER (HT GALLEON, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_SHIP_OF_THE_LINE
Unit UNIT_IRONCLAD
Unit UNIT_DESTROYER
Unit UNIT_BATTLESHIP
Unit UNIT_PLASMA_DESTROYER
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_NAVAL_DEFENSE {
Unit UNIT_LONGSHIP (ADVANCE UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MONITOR (TD IRONCLAD, ADVANCE UNIT)
Unit UNIT_PT_BOAT (ADVANCE UNIT)
Unit UNIT_FRIGATE (HT WWII PACK)
Unit UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER (APOLYTON PACK)
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SUBMARINES {
Unit UNIT_SUBMARINE
Unit UNIT_NUCLEAR_SUBMARINE
Unit UNIT_MOREY_STRIKER
Unit UNIT_KRAKEN
Unit UNIT_DREADNAUGHT
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SEA_TRANSPORT {
Unit UNIT_CATAMARAN
Unit UNIT_COG (TD)
Unit UNIT_TROOP_SHIP
Unit UNIT_CRAWLER
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_TRANSPORT {
Unit UNIT_CARGO_HELICOPTER
Unit UNIT_AIRCRAFT_CARRIER
Unit UNIT_SPACE_PLANE
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_ATTACK {
Unit UNIT_DIVE_BOMBER (HT WWII STUKA)
Unit UNIT_ATTACK_HELICOPTER (APOLYTON PACK)
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_DEFENSE {
Unit UNIT_FIGHTER
Unit UNIT_INTERCEPTOR
Unit UNIT_STEALTH_FIGHTER
UNIT_BUILD_LIST_BOMBER {
Unit UNIT_BOMBER (HT WWII B17)
Unit UNIT_JET_BOMBER
Unit UNIT_STEALTH_BOMBER
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited December 06, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited December 08, 2000).]
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Diodorus Sicilus
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Steilacoom, WA, USA
May 1999
time: 05:14
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Wes, this is looking better and better! I've been concentrating on rebuilding the Tech Tree advances for Ancient-Renaissance eras, but these unit lists are very close to my own notes: Great minds, etc.
Just a few observations/questions...
What is your intended difference between Phalanx and Hoplite in characteristics or strengths? The Hoplite, or heavily-armored spearman, was the historical progression from the simple (shield only) spearman of the ancient Middle East, while the 'pike phalanx' of Alexander and his Successors was the progression from Hoplite. Trouble is, Hoplites originated in Lydia and spread to Greece and the pike phalanx became the 'standard' infantry for almost every civilized state around the Mediterranean except Rome. If you need a Wonder Unit, how about the Legion instead? Trigger it with a Tactics, Training, or similar Wonder or Feat, because the Legion's combination of long training (expensive), heavy armor, and combined arms was never copied successfully by non-Romans.
Instead of a Wonder trigger, how about triggering the Elephant unit by the Elephant 'trade good'? I've broached this idea before, 'way back in the CivIII suggestions over a year ago: now it looks like it can be included in a civ game! Make the Elephant a rare good (Type 2 or 3?) and Elephant unit is obtained only if you have the good in a city radius or as a Trade Good from another civ (Ptolemaic Egypt and Seleucid Syria both traded for war elephants from Africa and India). This should be combined with a specific Advance, such as Dometication or Riding: without a source of elephants you get normal cavalry, with the elephants you get either cavalry or War Elephants - which should also have a pretty high maintenance cost.
Rename the 'Fascist' as a Storm Trooper or some other 'non political' title, and fergawdsakedon't make it unique to any government, but the 'standard' Modern (automatic weapons) infantry attack unit.
The Bombard and the Culverin represent very similar artillery weapons, both in effect and historical time. How about the difference being that the Bombard has an effect only on City Walls, which it negates? This would echo the historical First Effect of large gunpowder artillery, which was to make all existing fortifications obsolete. The Culverin, by contrast, would represent the first 'battlefield' artillery, with a regular Ranged effect.
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:14
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About the unit list.
How much are you planning to extend the current timeline? Cos I really hate having new unit types come and go before I can even build them and move them to some battle. With such an extended list, you should be careful about that. For that reason, I would suggest cutting it down. You seem to have added every unit you have a good graphic for, and some you don't have a good graphic for. I think less is more (though of course still more than what CTP2 comes with). For instance, why both an Ironclad and a Monitor, except that you can cos you have graphics for both?
Also, with so many units to pick from, I don't see why you should settle for anything less than fully animated units. This includes the units I've made: I'd rather you don't use them (except as a hole plug for a must have spot) since they aren't fully animated.
There is one unit I wish was on your list that isn't though: Chariot. Historically absolutely vital, but I guess not on your list simply cos there isn't a graphic that's even close to it. Could someone make one?
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WesW
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Florence, Al., USA
Jan 1970
time: 23:14
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Well, there is a lot to respond to today. 
Lev, or anyone else, if you would decompress the sounds zfs and send me the sounds from the Ctp1 units I am using, I would really appreciate it. Here is a list, which includes a couple of additions to the list above:
Warrior, Trireme, Phalanx, Legion, Cannon, Cavalry, Musketeer, Artillery, Plasmatica, Space Marines, Hovertank, Swarm, and War Walker.
If you would also lift the lines from the sounds.txt needed to use the files, and put them together so that I can cut-n-paste them into the Ctp2 sounds.txt, that would save me some time as well.
I am going to have to start farming some of this stuff out, there is so much of it.
Rebel Rick showed me how to change the slider bar numbers that are seen in the game, so I have corrected them, and set the food settings back to their original settings in the const.txt.
I am of the opinion right now that we should adjust those settings (food per pop), and perhaps the number of tiles worked per population in the initial radius, to address the growth problems in the game, rather than trying to adjust all the terrain settings. I feel that the terrains are pretty well balanced in relation to one another right now, and that making a couple changes to pop hunger is better than re-working all the terrains.
I have updated the unit list to reflect some recent changes, and the Legion unit, which I had forgotten to include.
Diodorus and I continue to think alike, in that I had already decided to make the Hoplite a wonder unit, and the Phalanx the standard defensive unit of the iron age. The Legion will be a wonder unit as well, so that we can give these two units the balance of abilities and costs that they had historically.
I plan to make Hoplites unable to attack on mountains, though they can move across them, and fortify on them.
If the slic guys can make a unit dependent upon a good being located near a city, then I would be happy to have this setup for the War Elephant.
I had already planned to make the Fascist a Stormtrooper-type standard unit, unrestricted by government, just like I did for the Med mod I.
The Bombard is going to be a militia unit, which those of you familiar with the Med mod I will remember cannot move. I like to keep two units garrisoned in my cities in the earlier time periods, one defensive and one ranged, for martial law effects as well as defense, and this will give you such a setup.
The Ironclad is the standard capital ship of its day, while the Monitor is going to be a cheap, slow coastal defender like in the Med mod I and certain Civ II mods. It was actually more of a harbor and river defender, so I might decide to make it a type of coastal militia unit, like the Bombard. (See how cool the possibilities are? ) Same thing with the PT boat, except that they weren't slow.
The only WWII pack units I used were for what I considered huge holes in the unit lists. I am not sure whether the Galleon needs to be a transport or a slic warship, but it does need to be in there, imo.
Btw, if someone wants to take these units and animate them, get in touch with Harlan and see if he will give permission to do so. Any new units that someone wants to create themselves I would be interested in hearing about.
I am looking for Renaissance-era and 19th-century cavalry units, as well as a Diamond age successor to the Attack Helicopter. A Chariot would be great as well.
Right now I have 7 stages of unit progression, the same number as in the Med mod 4, where I thought that they worked out very well. Since Ctp2 has more turns than Ctp1, you should turn out to have plenty of time with each age.
I read the thread TheBirdMan referred to, and I think I will leave that to scenarios for right now. If it turns out to be a good feature, we can see about adding it to the mod for multiplay versions or what-not.
Diodorus, I am glad to hear that you have been working on making tech changes to the game. Once you get a good idea of what you want to do, please make a thread so that I can see.
Paul made a Word tech-tree chart which mimics the one which came with the game. If you, or anyone else, would like a copy email Paul or I and we will send you one. (My old website is dead, btw, so I am having to temporarily do without one.)
One sore point, as I have stated in earlier posts: I found out that the AI is apparently limited to five unit_build lists at any one time. This is going to put a major cramp on my style as it were. I am going to have to get together with some slic programmers and work out how to arrange unit_list activation to produce a balanced AI force.
Btw, if anyone reading this is into slic programming, and would like to work on the Med mod, please contact me. I am working with Locutus and Gedrin, but this mod is going to be so slic-dependent that I am going to need about all the help I can get.
If we can get all the slic stuff to work, this mod is going to have a really different flavor than the Med mod I. The standard units, as you can tell from the list above, are now pretty generic, ie there are few culture-specific ones left. However, there are going to be enough slic units to enable everyone to have some, and it is those who are going to make the game really fun and a unique experience each time you play it. I think players are going to develop strategies of combining units and playing styles similar to what you would find in AOK or other rts games.
Once I get the first beta out, which will not have the wonder-enabled units available, and we get things play-balanced, then I will release a detailed list of the special settings and abilities of the slic units. I think people are really going to be blown away once they see it all laid out before them at one time. There are enough flags and settings in the game now that you can really create some interesting units once you know that the standard units are provided for.
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skorpion59
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Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
May 1999
time: 23:14
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Wes,
I haven't done much with SLIC lately because I have too many other things in the fire. However, I do plan on picking it back up soon. What motiviated me was the Samuri scenario. In it, I can run 7 tiles away from the 'bad guys' but they still attack me. In essence, they have removed the '1 tile away only' for attacking. (They actually didn't but thats another story). Hopefully, I will be able to give you a hand.
After seeing your last post, I have to say the drool is running down my chin and into my lap. I think maybe you should forget about all those silly things like school, sleep, food, etc and get this baby done!!!!! 
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:14
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Wes,
You didn't really answer my questions from my previous posting. First off, what percent longer will your mod be in turns than the regular CTP2 setup, and how does that compare with what percent of new units you'll have. I still worry about getting too many new units before I can really use them. Ways to automatically update old units to new (for a price or a Leonardo wonder or something) would help, certainly.
Second question. What do you think about my comment that "less is more" and one shouldn't simply add a new unit or wonder or other, just because the graphic is there? I'll again point to the Ironclad and Monitor as an example. As far as I know, there was no such thing as defensive and offensive Ironclads, there was just one type. The Monitor was but an early single boat, and as one of the first Ironclads ever built, largely without any offensive weapons. This was an oversight (based on a need to rush a weapon, any weapon to meet the Merrimack) that was soon rectified by all later Ironclads. I can see why for logical reasons its good to look for an offensive and defensive ship in each era, but the Monitor is not what you're looking for for that era, unless you want to fly in the face of history.
I would also call into question some of the other unit additions as being unnecessary, such as the Privateer, but if you could explain the wonders they'll be attached to, maybe they're look better. The Galleon I agree is an important unit, but I believe that is exactly what the Carrack is. They're nearly the same thing, but I'm sure the Activision guys named it Carrack simply so there would be one less unit they share with Civ2. For instance, I asked the lead designer why he wouldn't include Chariot, and the name was the reason: the legal team said they were skating on thin ice with having too many things the same as Civ2, and there was no other name to call Chariot.
Other ones I'd question: why a WW2 Frigate? Slinger? Horse Archer and Bandit Horseman (one or the other is fine)? Heavy Swordsman and Swordsman (again, one or the other)? The Zulus? These seem driven by a cos we have the graphics sentiment. Bombard, Culverin AND Cannon seems a bit iffy- 2 out of three is good, unless the mod will stretch time out a ton.
On the other hand, there are some holes that still need fixing. For instance, ICBM (I assume you forgot to mention Nukes), Seige Tower, Anti-Air Gun (pre-SAM).
On another note, what about a provision in your mod for reducing the PW cost of adding, say, a Mega Mine to where a Mine was, or a Railroad to where a Road was. For instance, pay 300 instead of 500 if the original cost 200.
I think it would be wonderful if someone made animations out of some of my units, but I also think it would be pretty near impossible, since they aren't based on 3D models.
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lozina
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Mt. Kisco, NY USA
Mar 2000
time: 05:14
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I just wanted to bring up the flaw in fighters and other air units. How is it that when I attack a city with a fighter- it gets destroyed by infantrymen (supposedly muskets) and artillery and cavalry??? Is there a way you can make it so if you attack a city with a air unit and that city has no anti-air capabality then you can destroy a random unit in that city? Also- can there be a new option added to bombers where upon bombarding a city you can aim for a specific unit/building or maybe even a wonder? Just some thoughts...
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06-12-2000 20:13
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