05-06-2001 20:27									#31
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Okay, you guys have sold me on a Standard map.

dinoarms, a friendly word of advice. When you say something like "(unless of course you have quite a few things to learn about the game)", you should know your audience. While you could easily say that about me, Viriato is an extremely accomplished player, so I would not use phrases like that when addressing him.

	05-06-2001 23:35									#32
	comment Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I wasn't refering to anyone in particular. I was just conveying that even the least able of us, probably me, would have a fair amount of time in the game with a standard map.

	06-06-2001 01:13									#33
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, so, who's going to start the game? Are we going to go without a CMN, just have guys take charge of their own passwords and such, or should we get a CMN in case (well, probably the likelihood) that someone drops?

	06-06-2001 02:30									#34
	CMN Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I would feel alot more comfortable if we had a CMN. Was Solver offering that role?

	06-06-2001 02:45									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No, I believe that Solver will be playing the good Provost in this game, but I am sure he will be able to locate a CMN for us.

	07-06-2001 00:22									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Qantaga,
I've never been so highly referenced in my SMAC life . Thanks for the complement, although I wouldn't describe myself in the same way.
I didn't take dinoarms words as a personal reference but I have no problem admiting that I have yet many things to learn in this game. If I didn't I wouldn't be playing it anymore.
As to the 'retire' thing it seems to me we're talking about the same thing. I knew the option existed but didn't know the menu name we had to choose. Now I know.

I'll take Solver's word on the game pace. I haven't been so lucky .
As I said before I don't mind playing in a standard map. I just prefered a larger map.

As for the other settings I strongly opose to having so many techs in the beginning. The principle of giving all the initial faction techs to all players is something used in the tournament map games. These are games with only 4 factions and are designed to be very fast and bloody games.
To acelerate the game we can use extra units like colony pods, formers and scouts, and some extra cash.
I know it's tough in the beginning but it's much more challenging to develop your faction from scratch.
I also bring to your atention that a random map can be highly unbalanced. This is one of the reasons that makes a CMN very important. He can evaluate all our starting positions.
If Solver doesn't find anyone available I can ask Misotu if she's willing to give us a hand.

Viriato

	07-06-2001 01:00									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, when a player retires, the AI takes over his faction. There is one problem with the procedure, though, and that is that either the next human player or all humans later in the turn order (I do not remember which) lose their turn. It is simply skipped, no production, no moves, no nothing. So it is a decidedly non-ideal situation, and it will usually be better to have the player obliterate his last bases.

	07-06-2001 01:39									#38
	intial settings Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

all


I would rather that we start with only one tech each. In fact even one colony pod would be fine. Especially if the turn rate was good. But my 1 month or so experience with pbems is that this game will take a looong time.

	07-06-2001 02:54									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think we should be fine with everyone getting just their natural starting techs.

I can tell you from personal experience that Viriato, theohall and I will be very quick to get turns out.

	07-06-2001 03:42									#40
	games settings Remove this text

I like the idea of a random map..however unfair it is....if you are stuck beside someone you can work together with them; there are no obstacles only oppurtunities.

But whatever you all want is fine with me.

We should proceed soon though...some of the joiners haven't posted in a while and we may lose some people. If that is the case I suggest starting a new thread entitled 7 player SMAC or the like.

Looking forard to playing

DA

	07-06-2001 05:34									#41
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If you are still looking for a CMN, I'm willing to volunteer. I should warn you that this would be my first attempt at creating a game of this complexity.

On the up side, though, I think I have played sufficient PBEMs to know what is acceptable and playable.

I would create the scenario, and then play through the first 10 MY or so, to look for any problems before sending out the game to you guys to play. Let me know if you want me to set up a game:

misotu@hotmail.com

	07-06-2001 05:43									#42
	Increase Your PM Length

Misotu,

I will follow up with an e-mail, but I can tell you that we would be pleased and grateful to have you as CMN for this game.

	07-06-2001 05:54									#43
	CMN Misotu Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That is fine with me and I'm sure it is with the others

I have read through the thread Faction Strife and noticed your name in the top ten. From this one can see that you are both a good player and a respected member of this community. I would be honoured if you were our CMN.

We have some lose ends as far as the game settings are concerned.

I believe that we are agreed upon:

Transcend
Standard Map
NOT abundant alien life forms

There is indescision around:

Whether the map should random or not. But I suppose your choosing and testing the map resolved the sources of controversy; imbalance and the desire not to play on what is known

The starting material for the game...ie units,tech and pods. We wanted a rated game but not an abundance of tech at the outset...but I have read that, for rated games, these things are set.

There has been no discusion, save suggestions I have made, about these settings

water coverage
cloud density
pod scattering
visibility of world map
start first
random events etc

My preference are

High density cloud cover
low erosion
pod scattering
world map not visible
start first
random events


Perhaps we should put some Time limit on resolving these things


DA

Last edited by dinoarms on 07-06-2001 at 05:59

	07-06-2001 06:20									#44
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

dinoarms,

Solver is the keeper of the ratings system and he has stated that there are no rules or pre-conditions to his rated games (like the tech bonuses you keep referring to). He posted his requested preferences back on page one of this thread.

I think we should go by those and then trust Misotu with everything else as far as making the game as fair as possible for all concerned. After all, that is one of the main benefits of having a CMN.

I'm sure she will check with Solver to make sure that the parameters are consistent with his rating system.

Other than that, I am extremely happy to have Misotu volunteer to be CMN and I don't think we need be concerned with all the various game settings. She will take very good care of us, I am sure.

Further discussion will just slow down the start of the game.

Misotu will need to know the e-mail address you would like to use for the game.

Also, cpt.slick - can you please post the e-mail you would like to use for the game? Thank you.

Last edited by Qantaga on 07-06-2001 at 06:45

	07-06-2001 07:46									#45
	game parameters Tired of ads?

Qantaga et al


Qantaga do I sense hostility in your post? Obviously I have erred and forgotten some some information in my last post that made a small portion of it redundant. I mailed my last post to Misotu. I have posted many times to this thread. All of my posts have been directed at starting a game that is satisfying to it's players as quickly as possible. Given that all of us , potentially, will be involved in the game for more than a year I think it is fair that some of the more aesthetic choices involved in the parameters are considered by all of us. This is a small thing for me to ask and I don't think a day will hurt us. In fact, if you, for instance, or any other player, had a strong aversion to one of the settings I have requested I would be more than happy to aquiess.

I have emailed Misotu my previous missive but for the purpose of emphasising my desire to have my suggestions considered and I will restate them in this post and email it to Misotu as well.

If you or any others have objections or questions to the folloing feel free to post them. Otherise I see no reason not to proceed with what we are allowed, have agreed upon AND what I have suggested. If there are no objections I would appreciate my additional reuests be honoured.

And Qantaga, If you are as concerned with time as I am than I would be glad to accept a time for resolution within 24-72 hours. Where the deadline should fall, within that span, I leave up to you.

DA - Time is as worthy of consideration as consideration is of time.


P.S.

That is fine with me and I'm sure it is with the others

I have read through the thread Faction Strife and noticed your name in the top ten. From this one can see that you are both a good player and a respected member of this community. I would be honoured if you were our CMN.

We have some lose ends as far as the game settings are concerned.

I believe that we are agreed upon:

Transcend
Standard Map
NOT abundant alien life forms

There is indescision around:

Whether the map should random or not. But I suppose your choosing and testing the map resolved the sources of controversy; imbalance and the desire not to play on what is known

The starting material for the game...ie units,tech and pods. We wanted a rated game but not an abundance of tech at the outset...but I have read that, for rated games, these things are set.

There has been no discusion, save suggestions I have made, about these settings

water coverage
cloud density
pod scattering
visibility of world map
start first
random events etc

My preference are

High density cloud cover
low erosion
pod scattering
world map not visible
start first
random events


Perhaps we should put some Time limit on resolving these things


DA

Last edited by dinoarms on 07-06-2001 at 08:03

	07-06-2001 08:07									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

dinoarms,

There is no hostility whatsoever in my posts. I know it is hard to read "tone of voice" in the written word, so I will assure you that my posts are exactly as they appear. I am looking forward to this game.

I just think that when we have an excellent SMAC player like Misotu offering her services that we can trust her to make the best choices with things like how much ocean coverage the map needs to have to be fair.

Also, it seems as if you are changing your tune a little. When Viriato and I both said that we would like a Large map, you dismissed it out of hand saying that it could take up to a year to complete a game on a Large map. In your last post, you are asking to have your asthetic choices because the game will take over a year.

I will step back now and patiently await the start of the game.

	07-06-2001 11:02									#47
	Dismissed out of Hand? Increase the size of your Attachments

Qantaga


I will accept at face-value that your posts are not hostile. But I have to wonder what you are thinking when you read my posts. You must be thinking about something else because....

You inturpret "I prefer Standard " as "dismissing (a large/huge game),out of hand"

You have confounded the sentence, "A large map would take at least a year to finish." with your "it could take up to a year to complete a large map"

In an Earlier post you mistook my statement, "If this is true than there will be no chance of getting wiped out early, (unless of course you have quite a few things to learn about the game). " as some sort of slight or at the least an underestimation of Viratios abilities. Curious, the post was not addressed to him....how did you come to that?

If in anyway my requests:

High density cloud cover
low erosion
pod scattering
world map not visible
start first
random events

should impact the the fairness of the game then they would certainly no longer be my preferences. Where in your reasoning does trust or a lack of it for Misotu arise Qantaga?

Comments such as "it seems you are changing your tune a little", "dismissed it out of hand" while easily construed as positve in tone are in my experience most commonly used to the contrary.

You have misinturpreted, misquoted and misunderstod me a number of times in the last week.

I agree Qantaga your "posts are exactly as they appear" and I do hope you are understanding my "tone of voice"


DA

Incidently my prefence for a standard map is a strong one. If you feel equally strongly about it I suggest a vote.

	07-06-2001 15:28									#48
	Increase the size of your Attachments

dinoarms,

Here is the olive branch.

I think what must be happening is that we are both very eager to get this game going.

I apologize if I have misconstrued, misinterpreted or misquoted you.

The only reason I took exception with your statement ""If this is true than there will be no chance of getting wiped out early, (unless of course you have quite a few things to learn about the game). ", is because the statement that you were referring to came directly Viriato's post.

I have no desire to call a vote on the map size or anything else. If there is anything at all you can tell about my posts in this thread, it is that I have no strong preferences, I just want to play.

My only point was that rather than having one or two of us choose all the options for 7 players, we could take what Solver posted back on page 1 (since it is his Ratings system) and then let Misotu make the remaining choices..

I will say it again. I sincerely apologize if anything I have posted has offended you in any way whatsoever.

	07-06-2001 19:03									#49
	Game settings Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Qantaga


I extend The Branch to you as well.

And I offer to you my synopsis of the state of resolve regarding the settings of the game. It includes and acknowledges both our opinions on how it should be resolved so that we can, as hehehe I know we both want, start playing as quickly as possible. I offer a solution to our conflict for your consideration as well.

Here again is the state of affairs. It has been refined and edifed by our debate.


I believe that we are agreed upon:

Transcend
NOT abundant alien life forms

There is or has been strong debate around map size
solution: vote for size

The starting material for the game...ie units,tech and pods. The group would like a rated game but want only faction default techs at the outset...Also I believe some of the less or unexperienced PBEMer's do not know what to expect here...It would be good if they were informed before the game started.

solution: ask the CMN to inform us...unless he already has. Sorry Qantaga I can't remember if we worked this out.

There has been no opinions from other players, save suggestions I have made, about the following settings. Qantaga has made several good points about how we could go about determining them.

1. We don't want to waste time working out some the more aesthetic settings for the map.
2. All players should have have a chance at these choices.
3. They must not affect adversely the Balance/Fairness of the game

solution: (2)I will email all players a list of these settings so that they have a chance to choose. (1)Qantaga I welcome you to determine a deadline for response. (3)Afterwhich the CMN can make adjustments soley at her discretion should any of them affect game balance/fairness. Otherise the vote stands.

water coverage
cloud density
pod scattering
visibility of world map
start first
random events etc

Hope this is ok with you Qantaga. I will not proceed without our agreement.

Last edited by dinoarms on 07-06-2001 at 19:08

	07-06-2001 20:13									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

It appears I can post now. Good OK, there's a lot of stuff to look over here. Give me an hour or so to get something together.

As an aside, there's no need to be despondent about the length of time it takes to agree start conditions. Most conditions are acceptable, but will alter the nature of the game and its style, so it really depends what you are looking for. It's often a bit of a long-winded process to agree the set-up.

	07-06-2001 23:55									#51
	No AI #1 Increase Your PM Length

All right, here's what I think I have so far:

Levelisk - Morgan Industries - jeffrey@thecases.com
theohall - Gaia's Stepdaughters - theohall@interconnect.net
Viriato - Peacekeeping Forces - viriato@megamail.pt
Solver - University of Planet - solver@apolyton.net
Qantaga - Spartan Federation - qantaga@aol.com
cpt. slick - Human Hive - sgtslick@hotmail.com
dinoarms - Lord's Believers - dinoarms@altavista.com and crackplaza@yahoo.com

Game: SMAC v4.0

Now ... settings It's hard to get perfect agreement between 7 players, so here are my suggested settings. Where I think I can see agreement here already, I've included those.

Map size: Standard
Map settings: Average cloud, life, erosion. I would strongly suggest 30-50% ocean, unless you all want to be on separate islands?
Difficulty level: Transcend
Starting techs, energy, units etc: Standard, no extra techs or units

Other settings:
All victories on, except for co-op
Do or die: on
Look first: on
Tech stag: off
Spoils of war: on
Blind research: off
No unity survey - world map not visible
Pods: on
Random events: off

A standard planet, with 30-50% ocean, will be fairly crowded ensuring early contact and probably early conflict.

Increasing the map size or ocean cover would delay contact but increased ocean tends to disadvantage momentum factions, who can take quite a while to get to Flex.

The fastest way to get this moving now is probably if each of you can read this through and then post to say either:

"These are fine" or
"Fine except xxxxx setting(s), which I would prefer to be xxxxx"

Please also include your country of residence/time zone, so that I can try to organise a sensible turn order to keep the game moving quickly.

Then we can count up the votes and hopefully be ready to go!

I understand that this will be a rated game. All that is required is that each player emails me with his or her AC Score every tenth turn (so in MY 2110, 2120, 2130 and so on). I'll summarise these, and forward them to Solver to include in the ratings.

	08-06-2001 00:23									#52
	Increase the size of your Attachments

These are fine by me.

I am in the Eastern time zone of the US. (GMT -5)

Thank you very much, Misotu.

	08-06-2001 03:04									#53
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Looks good Misotu, thanks for CMN-ing.

I'm in USA CST, GMT -6

	08-06-2001 03:11									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

For a moment I thought the game had begun and the spartans and the hive were already at war .
But it seems they already smoked the pipe of peace. Allis well when it ends well .

Thanks for offering your services Misotu. It's hard enough to find a CMN available these days. Find a CMN who volunteers is almost a miracle .
OTOH there goes my chance to ask you a few tips on how to play your favourite faction .

As for the settings I agree with everything except spoils of war. IMO it should be off.

I am in Portugal - GMT 0.

	08-06-2001 04:48									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

OK, this is looking good. Three replies so far, only one condition to discuss so far. Just waiting on the other four players.

Edited to add: Viriato my friend, general info on playing the sublime Peacekeeping faction is always available from misotu@hints.com, where our biased and opinionated columnist is always pleased to accept correspondence But nothing specific to any one game, of course ... especially not where said biased and opinionated columnist is an impartial CMN

	08-06-2001 05:33									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Misotu...looks good. I would prefer a Large Map, but if the majority agrees to Standard, that's fine by me.

edited for time zone - US Central Time GMT -6

	08-06-2001 19:15									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Re Map size:

If I can offer any words of advice (as someone who is currently in 25 or so PBEMs and who is moderating about a dozen), any builders among your group of players will be extremely frustrated with a Standard map size.

Map size is the biggest contributor to research rate, and with six or seven human players you'll be finding techs coming so fast that you won't be able to employ many of them before they are obsolete. (Humans are much more efficient at beelining and intertrading that ever is the AI)

I'd strongly recommend a Large map, if not Huge (there really isn't much difference between Standard and Large anyway - Standard is 40 x 80, Large is 48 x 90, versus Huge which is 64 x 128)

From my gaming experience, I'd say that I'm most enjoying the games on Huge or Large maps, and extremely disappointed in the few I'm in on Standard maps. The six and seven player games I'm in are all on Huge maps (I think Dune was the only exception, but that was a special scenario game anyway)

But then I'm a builder by nature.

A momentum player is always going to want a smaller map, such as Standard or lower.

Misotu - what's been your experience?

Googlie

PS:

Cross-posted with the five or so above

G.

Last edited by Googlie on 08-06-2001 at 19:29

	08-06-2001 20:58									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Hi Googlie. Well, my view is that so far the following start parameters are up for discussion:

Map size
Steal tech when conquer base

Once we have responses from all of the players, we should be able to nail down those two parameters, plus any other(s) raised in the process.

With 7 factions a standard map will, as I've already observed, be crowded. This will promote early contact and, probably, early conflict. Note that co-op victory is OFF - so I would hope that trading will be more carefully considered, and less frequent, than it is in co-operative games. In all honesty, the main problem for any builders is not likely to be using techs, or gaining techs too quickly, but defending themselves! Having said that, it's important to remember that 3 of the factions here are momentum types who really do need the possibility of reasonably early contact to have a chance.

The map size has been raised again by Theohall and several others here indicated a preference for a larger map in the earlier discussion. I think given 7 factions it will be worth revisiting once we have most of the parameters agreed. It is probably the most important start condition. I've played on standard to huge maps in MP - each map size has its benefits and disadvantages.

Unless the 7 players here are looking for a total bloodfest, I agree with you that a large map would probably produce a better game in this instance. Note, however, that some of the players are concerned that contact should occur reasonably early so that the game will offer plenty of early interest.

I can definitely deliver early contact even on a large map assuming moderate ocean cover and as an experiment I've even generated a map offering very nice possibilities that I think might satisfy everyone. So we'll see.

Still waiting to hear back from Solver, Cpt. Slick and Dinoarms ... I will email them again in case they didn't receive the first send.

	08-06-2001 22:00									#59
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I for one prefer a larger map. Just from single player experience, I know that contact can still occur quite quickly, even on a huge map. Plus, the extra room is good for us builder-types .

As for tech steal, it doesn't matter all that much to me. Sure, it's easier to get other peoples' techs without probe teams (or, by mind controling ), but it goes both ways. Whatever you guys prefer is fine with me.

	08-06-2001 22:13									#60
	Inflate your Upload Space

Misotu

I am E.S.T. I am generally availble to play from 5am-8am and 1pm to 6pm.

My preferences are

low erosion
abundant aliens
dense cloud cover