20-06-2001 01:47									#31
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Ned -- Datalinks aside, I've never experienced four extra drones after founding my seveth base or two new drones for each new base thereafter. I think you might be confusing "regular" drones that appear due to base population, with drones that appear due to the amount of bases on the map. On transcend level with no modifiers every faction should have a drone after the base grows to size 2. Most players counteract this by building a scout unit to act as police in order to quell that new drone which is, again, caused by population size not the amount of bases built.

So, given that I have six bases that are all size 2 I should have 6 drones when running 0 efficiency on a standard map at transcend level (without police SE modifiers or facilities). Upon founding the next base I would get one extra drone -- a beuracracy drone, because I exceeded my base limit -- for a total of 7 drones and 13 population.

According to your formula, instead of having seven drones upon founding the seveth base, I'd expect to see 10 total drones. So upon founding your seventh base you anticipate four of your bases falling into drone riots rather than just one?

Lets assume you had two colony pods and placed a seventh and an eighth base. You'd then have two more drones according to your formula giving you a total of 12 drones (six of which are beuracracy drones according to your formula) and 14 population. Given your numbers you'd have to expect six of your bases to go
into drone riots, correct?

I encourage you to give this a go and test it out. Let us know your results. Maybe if I'm bored tonight I'll give it a go myself and put my own theory to the test.

PS -- Just for grins I'm dying to know how CIV has anything to do with the beuracracy formula of Alpha Centauri?

	20-06-2001 07:23									#32
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WE, I set the experiment up as follows and repeated it at two difficulty levels.

I founded a base and created numbers of pods all around it. I then pressed B and checked the all bases for extra drones. Mostly this was easy since the a base went into riot. However, since at least the home base had a unit in it, I check that too for an extra drone.

I started with farther bases and worked inwards to avoid drones caused simply by inefficiency. What I found I reported in the tables. It appears that you get at least one extra drone each time you found a base over the bureaucracy limit, usually, but not always in the base you just founded. As well, you get 0, 1, 2 or possibly 3 other drones in other bases. The average appears to be two for each extra base you found over the limit independent of difficulty level. By the time you reach the second bureaucracy warning, all your bases have should have one bureacracy drone.

I think the effect increases as you continue to add bases. By the time you reach three times the warning level, each base should have two b-drones. At four times the warning level, each should have three b-drones per base.

I also found that captured bases count, and that bases captured from you or given away are still counted against your totals!

Efficiency moves the limit, and thus reduces the effect. However, one can quickly see why constructing a large number of bases can soon, very soon, lead to very severe drone problems unless you have police, psych, or rec. commons, etc.

Therefore, adding bases in large numbers can really kill later attempts at GA, which is vital to pop booming for Aki and Sven, and is necessary to run +2 economy with Wealth anything else but FM.

Ned

	20-06-2001 10:32									#33
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WE, I just checked my current game and observed the following:

24 original bases

42 captured bases

Each original base had 3 extra drones at zero efficiency.

Each captured base had 5.

I am playing transend on a map size where the zero efficiency B limit is 12.

The data indicates that on the average, each base over 12 generates two extra drones. Captured bases have two extra "captured" base drones. Both these numbers again exceed the specifications given in the Datalinks.

Ned

	21-06-2001 01:50									#34
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Ned -- I think you're right and wrong.

First, you can't simply add base after base after base and then add up the total bueracracy drones and come up with the average between them and assume that each base over the limit you produce that average amount of drones. If you continued to add base your average would increase because your exceeding the limit more and more. From what I understand after you lay your seventh base you gain one bueracracy drone, upon placing your eigth you gain one more, and so on until you found or capture your thirteenth base which would give you 2 more drones as opposed to just one (at this point you've double your bueracracy limit).

Given your formula and the data you've given I imagine that at some point, not far past the first or second warning, I'd experience more drones than total population of my empire. In my experience I often build over twelve bases within the first fifty years, which isn't enough time for those bases to grow very large and don't experience empire wide drone riots. Granted I have some drone issues, but eventually switch to Demo to help out.

Tonight I guess I'll have to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, and run a test of my own.

	21-06-2001 02:20									#35
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Ned -- I'm confused even further by your example. You state you have a total of 66 bases that are showing three bueracracy drones each. That's a total of 198 drones. You then went on to say that each base over tweleve generates on average two extra drones. So, 54 bases generating on average two extra drones (not that you can average the drones created by bueracracy ineffiecency anways) would only be a total of 108 drones (54 X 2 = 108 (54 bases over twelve times 2)), leaving a total of 90 drones unaccounted for by your average formula.

What I'm suggesting is that after you double your base limit your accquire two drones as opposed to just one, after tripling the limit you gain three drones as opposed to two, and so on. But given this assumption you should only have 150 drones caused by bueracracy not 198. Now, if you data is correct I would think that my theory is incorrect too. One possible answer is that I'm assuming that doubling your limit is where the second warning comes when in fact it may be sooner than double the original limit.

	21-06-2001 07:33									#36
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WE, I welcome your assistance.

On the way to work this morning I too realized that my math didn't add up. It appears that we are getting on the "average" more than 3 b-drones per base if all 66 bases have at least 3 b-drones. If we start with 2 per base between the first and second b/w's, at some time later the rate must increase to more than 3.

If you look at my original chart, I reported data between the first and second b/w's. In both examples at two different difficulty levels, the rate of drones averaged two per additional base, not one as you suggest and as the Datalinks state.

I am also puzzled by the "two" captured base drones. Perhaps what I am seeing is "two" b-drones in a base over the second b/w, plus one or more additonal drones elsewhere, plus a single captured base drone.

When I have time, I will try founding bases into the fourth and 5th B/W - and capture a few along the way - recording results as they occur.

	21-06-2001 07:43									#37
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Well, I still think you only get one drone per base after the first bueracracy warning, yet I haven't gotten home to test it.

The two drones your seeing when you capture a base are a standard thing. They remain for some fixed amount of turns (I forget how many) and then are gone. You'll notice that the graphic of the captured base looks like the enemy's base still only the color of the flag is yours. I believe that the graphic changing to look like your base represents those drones changing back to citizens. During the time of the drones that base is more likely to be subverted by the enemy at a reduced cost, so beware.

How are you counting the drones by the way?

I'd think if you were clicking on the psych button in the base screen you'd realize what those two drones are from as they're listed there, which also calls into question your method for tallying the large (too large, in my humble opinion) amount of drones you claim are from bueracracy.

	21-06-2001 07:49									#38
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Sorry for hi-jacking your thread SMAC Fanatic.

Further posts concerning Bueracracy should be redirected to the "Help with Bueracracy" thread or whatever it's called.

	21-06-2001 18:32									#39
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Efficiency, with Growth a close second. Fortunately the two go hand-in-hand with Demo and Cybernetic - only in deciding on a Green economy do you have to choose between them.

In the end, I find the SE element that concerns me most depends upon the faction I'm playing - both in terms of complementing strengths and offsetting weaknesses. For instance, Planet rating is most often a concern when I'm playing Cult or Gaians, where I can boost it bigtime with Green (Planet is also more important when native life is set to "abundant"). Consideration of Industry and Research are foremost as the Drones moreso than as other factions (Res lest you fall too far behind/ Industry bonuses for insane production - or the ability to run Power without worrying about stagnation).

	21-06-2001 20:40									#40
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I'm surprised by the number of votes emphasizing efficiency. While efficiency is one of the values I attempt to maintain, it lags in importance behind others, such as Growth, Research and Production. My experience is that proper settings on these factors can outweigh any deficiencies with efficiency. At the risk of asking an unfair question, can anyone quantify the benefits of high efficiency at the expense of other settings?

	22-06-2001 01:15									#41
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Morganstern,

I share your sentiments. A lot of the comments I see here are advocating high efficiency. To my mind tho' efficiency is a mid late game concern more so than the other SE's.

I am of the opinion that the sooner you can get you empire up and cruising the better off you are. Efficiency allows your empire to cruise smoother once its up to speed. The SE selection that allow your empire to get up and cooking are really Growth, Industry, Research and Econ.

To my mind the game comes down to races to certain techs and implementation of those techs. AI,D:AP, MMI, fusion etc. Sure you can get paradigm efficiency and boost your tech rate but really in the early game race efficiency is a fairly small factor (noticeable exceptions being Gaians running Demo and slamming research to 100%.) since for most factions it requires Demo/Green which is a significant detour.

Eff is great once your in conquest mode. But in order to get to conquest mode you need a quick start and maxing eff in the beginning game is not that effective.

Jus my thoughts

Og

	22-06-2001 01:19									#42
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I give that question a go Morganstern.

Some champions of Free Market often find that later in the game they tend to get more energy and research done when running Green because in Free Market they're losing some much to inefficeincy (I don't know if they've tried running Demo and Knowledge along with Free Market for a total of +3 efficeincy or tried a more specialist approach or not -- just what I hear mind you).

Also, what I like to do with the Gaians when in Demo (a total of +4 efficeincy for a paradigm economy with no loss when altering your percentages), which I thought for the longest time was silly, is slam the labs up to 100% in the SE screen to get a key tech, then slam up econ to 100% in order to buld the facilities/units/project that the new tech allows me to build.

Nonetheless, I still prefer a good ole' fashion pop boom.

Edit -- Opps, cross-posted with Ogie.

	22-06-2001 19:47									#43
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Interesting replies, WE and Ogie. My experience matches Ogie's in the early and mid game. I would not like to lose out in attaining the techs he mentions just for the sake of maintaining efficiency.

WE, I've not played Gaians to any serious degree, but I'm interested in finding out whether the 100% ploy will work with other factions. I'll have to try that next time around. My problem with Free Market usually comes in the form of drones from the aircraft and wandering units. This forces me to play Green until the fighting dies down. I've always figured this is a political statement by the game's creators, but it's admittedly necessary to keep the DEMO + FM + whatever choice from being too effective.

	22-06-2001 20:09									#44
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Morganstern, After one has built a few Psych enhancing facilities, it is easy to GA by applying 10-20% Psych (assuming you have not ICS'ed). If you GA while in Wealth, you get the +2 economy of FM, but none of its negatives. In other words, you get police and +2 econ at the same time!

Now, add to this GREEN, and you also get +2 efficiency, or PLANNED, and you POP BOOM with Aki and Sven (assuming Demo.)

Plus you also get +1 industry and a positive planet rating!

Ned

	22-06-2001 20:22									#45
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A very interesting thread.

But I still contend the Morale of your troops is the most important. I find the best way to expand, rather than pop booming, is to wait until your neighbor has built some nice big bases, and then simply take them away from him, roughly doubling the amount of territory you control. Then you rest your troops for a while, replacing infrastructure and perhaps getting a better gun or whatever. Then you again double your empire by conquering another large neighbor. At this point your empire is large enough so that the other SE choices, like effiency or industry may become important.

But it is morale that gets you that point, while ALSO getting rid of your competition.

And that is why I value morale most of all, because it is the only SE choice that strengthens you , while weakening your neighbors, therefore being doubly effective.

	22-06-2001 20:29									#46
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Drago, I agree with you about Morale, especially if those neighbors have equal or better troups because they are ahead of you in tech.

	23-06-2001 00:14									#47
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I contend that Morale is one of the overblown qualities of units in SMAC. Yes, experience counts for a lot in combat, but should an Elite unit really have its combat ability made 50% stronger than a Green unit?
Anyway, I think the Soporific Gas Pods help quite a lot to combat this overemphasis. I can remember when Domai was running...Power, I think, so I equipped all my Needlejets with Wave and Sopo, giving them quite a big advantage despite being one level behind in weaponry.
He died. Eventually.
I think Morale is rightly very important in Psi combat though. I once tried to go to war against Dee whilst running Eudaimonia and got tromped on by her MindWorm defenders...I switched Knowledge for Power and outwormed her.

	23-06-2001 01:55									#48
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Ned, I've had limited success building the psychology enhancing bases, and normally run at 20% Psych after I've conquered a significant number of other faction's bases. Still, the drone riots, and delay inherent in building these facilities universally (as opposed to building units) just hasn't been worth it in my view. I might try the GA emphasis for effect. I don't really ICS in the classic sense, since I always try to space my bases 3-4 spaces away, to allow for building and growth. Sometimes, however, you're stuck with the "near ICS" of the faction whose bases you've conquered.

I come down on the SMAC Fanatic side of the Morale debate. This just hasn't been much of a factor for me; number of units and the technology of my "guns" (as someone so elegantly calls them in this thread) seems to matter more. The only time it has been a serious factor for me was playing against the Alien factions.

	23-06-2001 03:53									#49
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SMAC, I don't think SP Gas works. I have attacked Elite units with my SP-equiped forces and they stay Elite. Have you actually seen it work?

Morganstern, The problem with ICS and with capturing a lot of bases is that it creates bureaucracy drones. These drones may prevent GA in your home bases unless you apply a lot of PSYCH, which somewhat defeats the whole purpose of GA in the first place.

However, you can counter the effect of b-drones by increasing efficiency. Green does just that. So does Demo or Cyber.

So - just build a few Research Hospitals and Tree Farms, and GA should be breeze with DEMO + Green. Wealth would then give you the plus 2 econ, in addition to +1 industry.

The downside is, of course, morale.

Ned

	23-06-2001 15:47									#50
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Soporific gas pods most certainly do work. The units on which you are using them will still be designated with their current Morale level (e.g. Elite) but will have the actual bonus given to them because of this morale taken down by two levels.

If the opponent on which you used them was running Power, the + modifiers would have been kicked up to +2. The Sopo pods, because they take Morale down 2 points, negate this value, so the units fight with 'normal' Morale, as if their faction were not running Power.

But yes, Sopo definitely does work. I used it against Domai when he had no Morale bonuses and it took his Elite troops down to a 25% combat bonus, with his Commandos going down to 12.5%. So yes, they work, and they are very useful.

	26-06-2001 02:05									#51
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The problem with Morale is that as the game drags on every other player has the ability to raise the base morale of their troops through monoliths, Secret Projects, a myriad of facilities, and social engineering choices. Each erode away the advantage of a faction with elevated morale.

	26-06-2001 05:27									#52
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I also think that morale is overblown to an extent, especially the farther into the game you are. I think that the clean reactor really pushes quantity over quality, and of the two types of quality, tech beats morale, especially the reactor techs. The most important bonus for morale IMO is the extra movement point that elite troops get, especially infantry whose movement rate is doubled.

	26-06-2001 08:21									#53
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Sik, Morale is also important in Worm Warfare. Try attacking Diedre's demon boils, in a base with a sensor, with a Tachyon perimeter and with a Children's Creche, when she also has the Nural Amplifier with only a very green unit. Ned

	27-06-2001 21:44									#54
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Morale is a nice way to go for a momemtum run, but I'll take the quantity and tech quality approach any day. Higher techs give so many different options that otherwise aren't available. Including just lobbing a very green conventional missile at Dee's Demon Boil, w/ sensor, tachyon perimeter, broodpits, Neural Amp.

Whoops there goes another Dee base.