20-02-2000 10:33									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I notice that both smash and hoss founded their cities right away. I waited for a few turns, irrigating the corn to bump up my short term food production. This was in anticipation of building a settler (although it now strikes me that the settler himself could have irrigated it first thing. Oh well). As it turned out, I found a wandering nomad 2 turns before my settler was complete, so I took the 50% penalty and switched production to collosus.

The other reason I waited to found the city was since there was a hut right beside my starting location, I figured there would be others nearby, so I went looking for NONE units. I ended up getting a whole bunch of archers, which really started to irritate me. I only got 1 tech from hut hunting and about 10 NONE units ("oh great, another archer" I muttered to myself a couple of times).

I'll be curious to see how many others delayed founding their city three or four turns.

edit: John-SJ, I agree with smash that 220AD is not too late. You'd probably still be able to make the late 1800s.
[This message has been edited by Tom DeMille (edited February 19, 2000).]

	20-02-2000 00:17									#32
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

It was a good plan to irrigate that wheat first and get some nons.I thought about it then jumped in.As a result,I had very slow early growth and development.

	20-02-2000 06:55									#33
	Got spare money?

"John-SJ, I agree with smash that 220AD is not too late. You'd probably still be able to make the late 1800s."

You might be right, except...well...I didn't mention one other *minor* detail. I had been at republic for a *lot* of turns, when I realized that my population had just turned over to 4. That's when i FINALLY realized that I had forgotten all about WLTPD up to 7. I was frustrated enough that I quit the game and deleted the saves. I need to remember to play this when my mind isn't distracted.

John-SJ

	20-02-2000 18:06									#34
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well done, Tom. I landed in 1725. I just made a comparison table for this game. Here's my log:


4000 BC Hut: Horsemen
3900 BC Hut: Archers
Athens
3750 BC Huts: 50 gold, wandering nomad
3700 BC Alphabet
3600 BC Phalanx
3550 BC Hut: Archers
3250 BC Code of Laws
Hut: Archers
3100 BC Romans: peace; they refuse alliance, don't trade science and don't pay tribute
2900 BC Vikings: same as Romans
2800 BC Monarchy, revolution
Romans: trade Map Making; give Warrior Code; alliance; share maps; no gift
Vikings: trade Currency
2650 BC Gov: Monarchy
2550 BC Mongols: trade Masonry; give 3 techs; alliance; share maps; no gift
2350 BC Vikings: tribute 25 gold
2200 BC Writing
2150 BC Barbarian Leader: 150 gold
Mongols: gift 25 gold
2000 BC Colossus
1950 BC Romans: share maps
Mongols: share maps
Vikings: tribute: 50 gold
1750 BC Trade
1600 BC Library
Hut: Chariot
1500 BC Romans: trade Horseback Riding; gift 25 gold
1400 BC Mysticism
1200 BC Hut: Horsemen
Aztecs: alliance; share maps; gift 50 gold
Romans: gift 25 gold
Mongols: gift 25 gold
1150 BC Temple
1100 BC Construction
1050 BC Zulus: trade Iron Working; peace
950 BC Romans: gift 50 gold
Vikings: tribute 50 gold
Mongols: gift 50 gold
850 BC Marketplace
Americans: trade Pottery, Seafaring, Wheel; alliance; share maps; gift 150 gold
825 BC Americans: trade Literacy
Hut: Chariot
Romans: share maps
Zulus: tribute 50 gold
Aztecs: share maps
Mongols: share maps
775 BC Aztecs: gift 25 gold
725 BC Republic, revolution
Gov: Republic
Start WLTCD, size 5
700 BC Colosseum
625 BC Romans: gift 25 gold
Aztecs: gift 50 gold
Mongols: cancel alliance
Americans: gift 50 gold
600 BC Aqueduct
Beads caravan (demanded) to Boston: 202 gold
575 BC Mathematics
Coal caravan (not demanded) to Trondheim: 98 gold
550 BC Harbor
525 BC End WLTCD, size 12
Sold Colosseum
475 BC Astronomy
450 BC Americans: trade Medicine, Philosophy; gift 100 gold
Romans: gift 50 gold
Hides (demanded) to Samarkand: 288 gold
400 BC Engineering
325 BC Aztecs: gift 25 gold
300 BC Vikings: share maps
Zulus: share maps
Mongols: share maps
275 BC Copernicus' Observatory
250 BC Barbarian Leader: 150 gold
200 BC Sanitation
Gold (not demanded) to Tenochtitlan: 202 gold
Silk (not demanded) to Tenochtitlan: 202 gold
175 BC University
Hides (not demanded) to Samarkand: 158 gold
Romans: gift 50 gold
Aztecs: gift 25 gold
Americans: gift 25 gold
Sold Temple
150 BC Shakespeare's Theatre
Barbarian Leader: 150 gold
100 BC Sewer System
Start WLTCD, size 12
75 BC Banking
25 BC Romans: gift 100 gold
Aztecs: gift 50 gold
Americans: gift 100 gold
1 AD University
20 AD Vikings: alliance; share maps; gift 75 gold
End WLTCD, size 17
40 AD Theory of Gravity
Gold (not demanded) to Zimbabwe: 138 gold
60 AD Bank
80 AD Bridge Building
Romans: gift 50 gold
Aztecs: gift 50 gold
Americans: gift 50 gold
140 AD Invention
160 AD Romans: gift 150 gold
Aztecs: gift 50 gold
200 AD Democracy, revolution
Zulus: tribute 50 gold
Mongols: tribute 100 gold
Vikings: gift 50 gold
Americans: gift 50 gold
220 AD Gov: Democracy
240 AD Isaac Newton' College
260 AD Gunpowder
280 AD Barbarian Leader: 150 gold
300 AD Chemistry
340 AD Explosives
Romans: trade Navigation; gift 100 gold
Vikings: gift 100 gold
Aztecs: gift 100 gold
Americans: gift 50 gold
360 AD Engineers
Barbarian Leader: 150 gold
380 AD Economics
400 AD Engineers
Aztecs: gift 50 gold
Americans: gift 50 gold
420 AD Metallurgy
440 AD Stock Exchange
Romans: gift 100 gold
460 AD Physics
500 AD Magnetism
520 AD Vikings: gift 50 gold
Aztecs: gift 50 gold
Americans: gift Feudalism
540 AD Electricity
580 AD Refrigeration
600 AD Supermarket
620 AD Steam Engine
Aztecs: gift 50 gold
Americans: gift 100 gold
Start WLTPD, size 15
660 AD Railroad
680 AD Romans: gift 50 gold
Americans: gift 100 gold
700 AD Industrialization
Wine Caravan (demanded) to Tenochtitlan: 237 gold
740 AD Corporation
780 AD Refining
Vikings: gift 50 gold
Americans: gift 100 gold
800 AD Darwin's Voyage: Combustion, Steel
820 AD Automobile
Americans: gift 50 gold
Vikings: gift 50 gold
840 AD Superhighways
860 AD Electronics
880 AD End WLTPD, size 24
900 AD Chivalry
940 AD Mass Production
980 AD Leadership
Aztecs: trade Conscription; gift 150 gold
Vikings: gift 50 gold
Romans: gift 100 gold
1020 AD Engineers
Tactics
1060 AD Machine Tools
Alpine Troops
Silk Freight (demanded) to Washington: 678 gold
1080 AD Miniaturization
Coal Freight (demanded) to Tenochtitlan: 730 gold
1100 AD Sold Sewer System
1120 AD Computers
1140 AD Research Lab
1160 AD Mobile Warfare
1180 AD Sold Aqueduct
1200 AD Robotics
1220 AD Factory
1240 AD Flight
Solk Freight (demanded) to Zimbabwe: 208 gold
1260 AD Power Plant
1280 AD Radio
1340 AD Manufacturing Plant
Advanced Flight
1380 AD Rocketry
1420 AD Space Flight
Vikings: trade Atomic Theory; cancel alliance
1440 AD Apollo Program
1460 AD Aztecs: cancel alliance
Coal Freight (demanded) to Tenochtitlan: 355 gold
Copper Freight (not demanded) to Tenochtitlan: 142 gold
1480 AD Plastics
1540 AD Nuclear Fission
1590 AD Nuclear Power
Vikings: sneak attack
1620 AD 15 Structurals
1630 AD Laser
1670 AD Superconductor
1680 AD 6 Components
1710 AD Fusion Power
3 Modules
Launch Spaceship
1713 AD Communism
1715 AD Recycling
1717 AD Mass Transit
Environmentalism
1718 AD Solar Plant
Sold Power Plant
Vikings: peace
1722 AD Labor Union
1724 AD United Nations
1725 AD Arrive on Alpha Centauri

[This message has been edited by Paul (edited May 06, 2000).]

	21-02-2000 09:31									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was just reading through these logs as well as earlier ones and noticed that everyone built Copernicus before Shakespeare's except for me (not to be a pain, but Paul you switched it on your comparison table). How are you able to build a city up to size 12 without unhappiness if you don't have Shakes? I started having unhappy people at size 4. The only way I could have grown if I built Copernicus first would have been by upping lux to 40 or 50 percent, and then science would have suffered.

	21-02-2000 10:45									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

We get to size 12 by building a colosseum. And sorry about switching your Cop/ST in my table; I'm just so used to seeing them in this order that I didn't look too close at your log.

	21-02-2000 17:58									#37
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yes Hoss, if you look carefully at the build order you will see that we build a temple and colosseum close to the time we switch to republic. You then up luxuries and have WLTCD to size 12. You will usually find at this point that you need to keep luxuries at 20%, and that you will have a few more happy people than discontent. So sell your colosseum and save the gold (you won't be growing anymore until after Shakespeare's Theatre is built).

Why not build Shakespeare's first and save not having to waste time on building the colosseum? Because you will be able to build the colosseum several turns faster, and be up to size 12 several turns earlier. That outways the fact you have a now useless building.

edit: Paul, two observations on our logs. With the trireme available for quick transport, I decided to build the caravans right after the library. My trade routes were established very early which I think was a big benifit.

I finally see the light on delaying the factory until later in the game. I built mine early, wanting to get up to 25 production so I could build a caravan every two turns. This finally hurt me in this game, since there was a lot of engineering work to be done. My engineers spent far too much time fighting pollution instead of mining and railroading a few hills. As a result, I was totally unprepared for space flight (with 53 production). From now on, I'll make it a point to not build my factory until all my tiles have been transformed to my satisfaction.
[This message has been edited by Tom DeMille (edited February 21, 2000).]

	21-02-2000 18:19									#38
	Suffering from ads?

Yes, that's why I like to delay the factory. Even so, I still needed to build a third engineer to get my land improved in time for the spaceship. When I compared our logs I saw that you had a better start and that I caught up later in the game. Unfortunately not enough to beat you to AC , but it is nice to see someone else do better on an OCC comparison game for a change.

	21-02-2000 19:38									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ah, a third engineer would have been just the ticket. Paul, I notice in my summary that I gave you the wrong date for turning size 12. It should be -800. -150 was when I started a new WLTCD to get up to size 16.

I used my settler/engineers very poorly in this game. I wasted a lot of time mining the gold mountain, for a gain of only one shield (this was my settler's 1st project). I also wasted several of my engineers' turns trying to convert a hill into plains. They never ended up getting it done, because pollution kept poping up. When spaceflight came along, I had 6 untouched hills. Definitely room for improvement.

	21-02-2000 19:48									#40
	Put an end to popups!

I already found it very strange that you got to 12 so late and still managed to get to AC in 1705; I guess I should have checked your complete log to see if it was the wrong date.

	22-02-2000 02:46									#41
	Remove this text

First of all I want to say thanks to everyone who participates in this. I don't have time to play much and I live vicariously through your logs and I learn through the table Paul takes the time to post on his site. I was wondering if folks might not mind throwing what version they're using into the log, as well. Thanks either way and please keep it up.

	22-02-2000 03:08									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You'll have an easier time with v242, and I think most of us here use that version. With Multiplayer Gold, the AIs are a lot less friendly. So instead of being able to ally with all the AI civs (like I managed in this game), you'll be lucky to not have them all at war with you.

	22-02-2000 03:11									#43
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I used the single player version and do plan a "retry" with the MGE.

since this was a scenario perhaps I should mention it was deity level

looks like theres' a new kid on the block Paul.

	22-02-2000 03:33									#44
	Suffering from ads?

comparison table updated with Tom's corrected size 12 date.
[This message has been edited by Paul (edited May 06, 2000).]

	23-02-2000 16:25									#45
	Increase the size of your Attachments

No prize for me ... seems I share the booby with Smash - good company anyway

Just read the thread more carefully, Well done, Tom! I had estimated Paul's 1725 landing, but never expected it to be substantially trimmed.

v2.42 - deity
1863 landing - guess that's no banana!

I simply cannot instill sufficient urgency into my middle game - the medieval period drags on forever - I shall have to force myself to research in 5 at a loss rather than 6 at a gain.

Monarchy -2850
Republic -325
Democracy 220

Colossus -1650
Shakespeare's -250
Copernicus' 60
Darwin 660
Isaac's 880
Apollo 1800

Trade -1650
Construction -1250
Invention 100
Sanitation 940
Refrigeration 1220
Automobile 1560
Space Flight 1798

Trade route#1 -625
Trade route#2 -625
Trade route#3 -500

Gold:
Trade routes: 2174
Huts + Barbarians: 525
Tribute: 6292 including 17 from death of Vikings

I was short of freights for the SS, but fortunately the war chest was well stocked.

Sten, it took me ages to realize that the tech tree was open - and then I didn't know what to do with it!!!

Great map great game - might even replay it tons of enjoyment even if I have come in last - again!


Scouse Gits rueing the day they played as Rue Paul --
4000BC
OK, Sten, I see the coal in the right place, but ...
moves Chariot - Gold!, Silk - I can build - first tip this hut ...
another Chariot that can just catch the boat ...
Ahhh - Wheat not a bad start and a second hut - have to delay founding until its tipped
3950 - Another Chariot - maybe I should go for an OCC Conquest ... Liverpool founded
3900 - Hut Wandering Tribe (None) - I must have a lousy love life
3750 - Hut 25g, Hut Currency
3700 - Warrior
3600 - Warrior
3550 - Hut Alpabet
3400 - Code of Laws
3350 - Warrior, Start Colossus
3200 - Obliging Barbarian Trireme makes Trireme Veteran
3000 - Hut Archers (None), Meet Vikings - Peace - refuse to trade Knowledge because ...
2950 - Monarchy (the first time I have ever counted beakers exactly), Revolution
2950 - Vikings trade Code of Laws for Writing, Warrior Code for Map Making, give them Currency & Monarchy for Maps - they are so weak - I think I feel some mayhem coming on ...
2900 - Hut Feudalism
2850 - Government turns to MONARCHY, Trireme finally fit again
2750 - Bash Vikings - fortify on adjacent mountain
2650 - Vikings hurl themselves to destruction
2550 - Hut Archers (None)
2500 - Vikings hurl themselves to destruction
2450 - Chariot (Vet) destroys Viking Civilisation - 17 gold plundered - that was fun!
2400 - Hut Horseback Riding
2200 - Hut 50g
2150 - Find Aztecs - peace - gift CoL, CB & Monarchy for maps - see Mongols Oh Goody
2000 - Hut Horseman, Find Romans - gift BW & Writing for maps
1950 - Hut Barbarian Horse - destroyed
1850 - Romans in alliance, but no money, Aztecs Worshipful, but no alliance
1800 - Mysticism
1650 - COLOSSUS, Hut TRADE
1500 - Library, Hut Iron Working - Barbarians at the gate - two killed one going for my coal mine
1450 - coal mine destroyed
1350 - get Masonry and 25g from Romans
1300 - Beads Caravan built
1250 - get CONSTRUCTION and 25g from Romans
1200 - Literacy, Mongols offer 100g for peace - happy to oblige
1100 - Roman maps
1000 - Romans 100g
0975 - Americans offer 150g for peace - MWHC is slipping
0950 - Zulus - get Pottery, The Wheel, 150g, maps and alliance!!!
0900 - Horseman killed by Barbarians
0850 - Romans 50g
0800 - allies - nothing
0750 - Temple
0700 - PHILOSOPHY - MEDICINE
0675 - Romans Polytheism; Zulus 25g
0650 - more Barbarians coming calling
0625 - Coal & Silk neither required to Washington 80g each, Zulus 25g
0550 - Americans 25g
0525 - Barbarians to the South, North & East - looks bad for the kid ...
0500 - Hides to Rome unwanted 88g
0475 - Mathematics
0425 - Romans 25g; Zulus 50g; Aztecs The Republic; Revolution
0350 - Barbarian Leader 150g; Start WLTanarchistD
0325 - REPUBLIC
0275 - Sell Temple
0250 - SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE
0225 - Romans 50g; Zulus Engineering & 50g
0175 - Aqueduct
0125 - Romans Seafaring & 50g; Aztecs Banking & Maps
0100 - Harbour
0050 - WLTCD stops at size 11 (Trireme at sea)
0025 - Romans 100g; Zulus 50g (now Icy!);

code:

+----------------------------------------------+
| In this the First Year of Our Lord, Mighty   |
| Consul Rue Paul has decreed that this humble |
| scribe should describe to the waiting world  |
| of Aployton the wondrous state of our in-    |
| comparable city of Liverpool.  As it is      |
| written, so let it be ...                    |
|                                              |
| Liverpool, size 11 population 660,000        |
|  Food 22; Trade 62; Tax 12g; Science 75      |
|  Tax Rate 2.0.8 Researching Invention (0 in) |
|  Trade routes Washington 6; Washington 6 &   |
|  Rome 6.                                     |
|  A fifth Food Caravan will be produced this  |
|  year and one of our remaining two Warriors  |
|  will be sacrificed to make the Sixth that   |
|  we need to observe the Stars.               |
|  Our glorious NONE army currently comprises  |
|  Two Archers, Three Veteran Chariots and a   |
|  noble Settler without whos offices we must  |
|  surely have failed.  Our Veteran Trireme    |
|  is Tenochtitlan bound with a Gold caravan.  |
+----------------------------------------------+

	23-02-2000 23:45									#46
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ok. As I said a while ao I had a good start. But the problem with Good Starts is that they are an invitation for stupidity. I'm not entirely sure where I went wrong, but I didn't get to old AC 'till 1779. Ought to have been a lot earlier. And without further ado, the log.

First, as has become custom, my key stats for the table:

AC Landing: 1779

Mon: 2850 BC
Repub: 1050 BC
Demo: 225 AD

Col: 2150 BC
Copes: 600 BC
Shakes: 225 AD
Newtons: 320 AD
Darwin: 840 AD
Apollo: 1440 AD

First Trade: 1200 BC
Second: 1200 BC
Third: 1150 BC

Turns: I don't know

Size 12: 825 BC
Size 21: 540 AD

Now, from looking at the highlights other than the landing date you'd have thought I'd done well. Well I didn't. Here's the log:

BC
4000 Hut, Chariot (NONE)
3900 Hut, Archer (NONE)
Build OrangegroveCity
3850 Hut, Nomads (rock n roll)
3700 hut, Archers (not NONE)
3650 Alphabet
Build Warrior
Hut, Chariot (NONE, someone must be close)
3550 Vikings, Peace, Writing
3350 Build Warrior
Begin Colossus
In the last three turns my power has gone from Moderate, to Weak, to Mighty!
3250 Hut, Code of Laws
3050 Romans, Peace, Horseback Riding
3000 Mongols, Alliance, 50 gold
2950 Hut, Monarchy (rock and roll, baby)
Revolution
2900 Aztecs, Alliance
Hut, Currency
2850 In Monarchy
2800 Hut, Archers (NONE)
2700 Hut, Mapmaking
Vikings, Share Maps
Aztecs, Maps
2650 Romans & Mongols, Maps
Vikings, 50 gold
2600 Hut, Horseman (NONE)
2550 Americans, Peace, 50 gold, Masonry, Mysticism
Hut, Horseman (NONE)
2500 Americans, Pottery
This is really starting to annoy me. My power is supreme, I give away pretty much all tech I've got and no bugger will ally with me. Why?
Hut, 50 gold
Barb Leader, 150 gold
2450 Zulus, 50 gold, Peace, Maps
2400 NONE Archer gets home, Disband Warrior
2300 Hut, Construction (and still no more alliances damn it. and no tributes!!)
2250 Aztecs, 25 gold
2150 Build Colossus
NONE Chariot gets home, Disband Warrior
Trade
2100 Romans, Alliance (eh? they've been refusing for the past 30 or whatever turns)
Switch production from Library to Caravan
2000 Hut, 50 gold
Aztecs, 50 gold
1950 Hut, 100 gold
1900 Build Caravan, Hides
Zulus, 25 gold
1850 Hut, Mathematics
1800 Build Caravan, Gold
1750 Vikings, 25 gold
Americans, 50 gold
1700 Build Caravan, Coal
Hut, 50 gold
Romans, 25 gold
1550 Build Library
Aztecs, 50 gold
1500 Astronomy (should have gone for lit, thought an AI would have it by now)
1400 Romans, 25 gold
Build Temple
1300 Aztecs, Literacy
1250 Americans & Zulus, 50 gold
1200 Gold Caravan to Tenochtitlan, 108 gold
Coal to Trondheim, 60 gold
Vikings, The Wheel
1150 Build Colosseum
Philosophy, The Republic, Revolution
Hides Caravan to Tenochtitlan, 96 gold
1050 Build Aquaduct
In Republic
Begin Cope's
Barb Leader, 150 gold
1000 WLTCD begins, size 6
950 Romans, 25 gold
925 Medicine
Remember I have a supported Archer, Disband it.
900 Mongols, 50 gold (finally. they are so glum these days)
875 Aztecs, 25 gold
850 Aztecs, 25 gold (I love those Aztecs)
825 WLTCD ends, size 12
Information:
Rates = 00/80/20
Tech/Turn = 5
Gold = 342
Arrows = 68
Sheilds = 11
Food Surplus = 2
800 Romans, 25 gold, Iron Working
775 Aztecs, 75 gold (unusual amount)
750 University
725 Aztecs, 100 gold (they love me!)
675 Aztecs & Romans, Maps
650 Aztecs, 50 gold
600 Build Copernicus' Observatory (now 3 turn/tech)
Romans, 50 gold
550 Aztecs, Banking
525 Aztecs, 50 gold
450 Sanitation
400 Aztecs, 50 gold
350 Invention
300 Aztecs & Romans, 50 gold
Mongols, 100 gold
250 Democracy, Revolution
Zulus, 100 gold
Vikings & Americans, 150 gold
This turn has made me realise how much I ought to be allied to more civs. What did I do wrong? I am losing out on a lot of gold here. I think if I don't get a good landing date it will be primarily because I was not allied to more than 3 civs.
225 Build Shakespeare's Theatre
Sell Colosseum
In Democracy
Aztecs & Mongols, 25 gold
200 Sell Temple
175 Build Sewer System
WLTPD begins, size 12
150 Aztecs, 50 gold
125 Chemistry
75 Romans & Aztecs, 50 gold
25 WLTPD ends, size 17
Gunpowder

AD
1 Build University
20 Aztecs, 50 gold
Mongols, 150 gold
Zulus, Economics, Alliance (agreed to crush Americans), 100 gold
40 Explosives
Aztecs, Seafearing (finally!)
Americans, Cease Fire
60 Aztecs, 50 gold
80 Metallurgy
100 Mongols, 50 gold
120 Navigation
140 Aztecs & Romans, 50 gold
160 Physics
200 Zulus, 25 gold
220 Magnetism
240 Americans, Peace, Maps
Zulus, Maps
280 Electricity
300 Aztecs, 100 gold
320 Build Issac Newton's Observatory
Mongols, 50 gold
340 Refrigeration
360 Barb Leader, 150 gold
Build Engineers
Zulus, 100 gold
380 Build Engineers
420 Build Supermarket
WLTPD begins, size 15
All Allies, 50 gold
440 Build Harbour
460 Aztecs, Bridge Building, 50 gold
Romans, Maps
480 Build Marketplace (yes, I waited this long)
500 Railroad
520 Aztecs, 50 gold
540 Aztecs, 100 gold
(OrangegroveCity is size 21)
560 Build Caravan, Wine
580 Build Caravan, Copper
Industrialisation
620 WLTPD ends, size 24
Romans, 100 gold
640 The Corporation
660 Americans, Maps
Zulus & Mongols, 50 gold
680 Refining
Aztecs, 100 gold
700 Romans, 50 gold
720 Steel
760 Combustion
800 Automobile (Americans built Leo's last turn, lol)
Romans, Conscription
820 Copper Caravan to Tenochtitlan, 96 gold
840 Build Darwin's Voyage
Electronics, Mass Production
Aztecs, Fuedalism
Wine Caravan to Tenochtitlan, 234 gold
860 Romans and Zulus, 50 gold
Mongols, 100 gold
880 Build Mass Transit
Chivalry
900 Mongols, 50 gold
920 Leadership
Romans, 100 gold
940 Build Superhighways (science at 100% would yeild 900 beakers exactly)
960 Tactics
Mongol, Zulus & Romans, 50 gold
1000 Machine Tools
1020 Build factory
1040 Miniaturization
1080 Computers
Romans & Zulus, 50 gold
Mongols, 100 gold
1100 Build Research Lab
1120 Flight
1160 Radio
Build Hydro Plant
Realize I ain't gonna get bigger, Sell Sewer System
1180 Sell Aquaduct
1200 Advanced Flight
Build Offshore Platform
1240 Rocketry
1280 Space Flight (production currently 50)
Romans, 50 gold
Aztecs, Communism
1320 Plastics
1380 Atomic Theory
1440 Build Apollo Program
Nuclear Fission
Hmm. Production of 58. I seem to have forgotten Manufacturing Plant.
1460 AI has started swapping techs like crazy. They aren't happy with me.
1480 Build 1 Structural
Expel Viking Diplo, no dount on it's way to steal SF
1500 Mobile Warfare (finally
1520 Robotics (again, finally)
1540 Nuclear Fission
Expel another Viking Diplo
1550 Build Manufacturing Plant (production now 83. phew)
1570 The Laser
1600 Superconductor
Expel another Vik Dip
1630 Fusion
1660 Vikings Sneak Attack (been waiting for it to happen). NONE settler dead.
Kill a Vik Dip and a Cavalry
1670 Guerrilla Warfare
Build Armor
1680 Disband Triereme
1690 Disband Chariot
1730 Romans cancel Alliance
1740 Sell University
1764 Launch. At bloody last. I thought I was gonna get a really good landing date. Oh well.
1779 Land. Oh dear. I thought it would be a great victory for me. AI didn't put up much of a fight. The Vikings sent one or two units over and noone else did anything at all.

Right, I know it's a silly and demanding question, but where did I go wrong? I wanted to have more alliances, I never built a stock exchange, I forgot about manufacturing plants and so on. What should I remember not to do next time? Anyway, this was a good one, I enjoyed it, but as I've said I was dissapointed.

Graag

------------------
You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

	24-02-2000 00:24									#47
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, Graag, you certainly got to Space Flight quickly. You just didn't have the 80 production needed to get the space ship out the door. I had a similar problem, but was slightly ahead of the game, having researched robotics before space flight. Paul was able to get to AC 40 turns after discovering space flight, which is the fastest possible. It took me 49, and it took you something like 60. Otherwise, great game. You got the caravans out the door very early.

	24-02-2000 03:26									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Table updated. And Tom was right. If you had built a third engineer and a manufacturing plant you might even have beaten him to AC. The difference between 1705 and 1779 may look big but it is only 13 turns.
[This message has been edited by Paul (edited May 06, 2000).]

	24-02-2000 09:33									#49
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Well! Took forever to find the other civs due to a hut barbarian killing my trireme's chariot and my first contact, the Vikings, got destroyed by elusive Mongol barbarians. Also Zulus and Romans were destroyed by ragin' barbs. Here's the pregame first thoughts and the preview log and the game log:

First Thoughts

4000 BC I'm thinking of founding my city of Zwolle after sending the trireme south to discover wheat and chariot south on the river discovering gold! I consider it fortunate to have then gone north to gather a none archer mercenary within the turn. The archer found Spice! But then the Trireme found a hut! Things can only go downhill:

Pregame Log

Establishing new goverments:
Monarchy-2650 -2650
Republic -600 -520
Democracy +860 +940
Wonders
Colossus -3100 -1600
Copernicus +80 +280
Shakespeare +280 +500
Newton +760 +980
Darwin +1640 +1660
Apollo +1774 +1778
Trade routes
First -50
Second +20
Third +860 ! second attempt at third caravan!
Scientific discoveries - dates
Trade -1450
Cons -825
San +500
Refr +1280
Auto +1610
Comp +1700
SF +1776
AC +1851
City population
Size 12 -250
Size 19 +720
Size 21 +1600 (?)
Size 24 +1630
Version 2.42

Game log

4000 BC Bronze/Ceremonial/WC-pre-working settler near wheat. None Chariot/None Archer.
3800 BC Hut 50gd
3750 BC Hut archer
3700 BC Founded the City of Zwolle
3600 BC Hut Alpha!
3600 BC Vikings-Peace/refused alliance/tributed mapmaking
3300 BC Most uncanny … rush bought settler and then found a none settler in a hut. Don't know whether to apply the settler shields to colossus or work the land fast. Should have checked the hut first but how often do we find nomads?!
3250 BC Settler to warrior
3200 BC Code of Laws
3200 BC Hut Pottery
3150 BC Vikings destroyed by Mongols (and barbarians )
3150 BC Size 2 and two settlers working two special mines
3100 BC Warrior to Colossus
2900 BC Romans destroyed by barbarians
2900 BC Hut Barb in hills!
2850 BC Lost Chariot to barb horsy
2650 BC Monarchy researched and established
2600 BC Zulu's destroyed by barbarians
2600 BC Hut Zwolle Archer-good news as it is so far from home.
2300 BC Size 3
2150 BC Writing to Currency
2000 BC Barbarian uprising-first barbarians to visit this peninsula
1900 BC Livy's Epic History: OCCer's most advanced
1800 BC Currency to Trade
1700 BC Barbarian Booty (Total: 225gd)
1600 BC Colossus to Library
1450 BC Trade to Masonry
1150 BC Americans undertaken Pyramids
1100 BC Library to Marketplace
1000 BC Masonry to Construction
1050-BCBarbarian horse
1000 BC Dead Archer
950--BC Hut Chariot
925--BC Hut Mysticism
825 BC Construction to Literacy
750 BC Hut Feudalism
600 BC Literacy to Republic
600 BC Aztecs-Peace/traded for Republic/Refused alliance/tributed 150gd
625 BC Researching Philosophy
550(?)BC Revolting
525 BC Republic Established
525 BC Have built Marketplace/Granary/Pikeman/ and working on Temple
500 BC Temple to Coliseum and disbanded warrior
500 BC Commencing WLTCD Still size three
475 BC Killed Barbarian leader (total: 258gd)
450 BC Coliseum to aqueduct
350 BC Gifted Aztecs two sciences but still declined alliance/shared maps
350 BC Sold Granary to keep pace on WCTCD Size 8
325 BC Aqueduct to Bank
325 BC Philosophy to Banking to Mathematics
275 BC Emmisary from MyWifeHatesCiv of the Americas
Peace-traded for Wheel and Horseback Riding/Gave Writing and Republic/Neutral to Worshipful
Shared Maps but MWHC considers an Alliance only intriguing. Seems to be preoccupied with
Barbarians from defunct Zulu. Pity, he seems an honorable man.
275 BC Aztecs alliance for Philosophy….forgot to give away the science house but got 50 gd.
250 BC Size 12 WLTCD ends
150 BC Aztecs Request War with Mongols. For 50gd, we are persuaded.
150 BC Mathematics to Astronomy
125 BC Bank to Caravan….very late for Zwolle Traders
50 BC Caravan (Beads) to Caravan
25 BC Mongol cease fire for Construction
20 AD Caravan(Copper) to Caravan
80 AD Happy day in Zwolle: Third Caravan and Astronomy to Medicine Commencing Copernicus
120 AD Barbarians have captured Philadelphia and Boston from MWHC
160 AD Generous Zwolle Traders give away the House of Science to Aztec Allies/ Receive 100gd gift
240 AD Zwolle Celebrates belated first Caravan (240gd to Aztec Ten')
260 AD Medicine to Engineering
280 AD Copernicus built and Commencing Shakespeare
300 AD Mongols have situated themselves on a fortress of MY gold! Got Peace.
320 AD Mongols Break Peace! Typical. Atleast we can use the gold again. None Archer dies
320 AD Decided to avoid mongols trade and diverted gold caravan to MWHC
320 AD Engineering to Sanitation
400 AD Barbarian destroys Gold Caravan! Third Caravan! I am Pissed!
420 AD Hut Invention
420 AD MWHC-trade for seafaring and ironworking/Gave away lots of Science
420 AD Caravan to Aztec Teo' for 202gd
460 AD Finally sold Temple! Don't seem to have that luxury has been at 20% since the last WCTCD
480 AD Sold Coliseum
500 AD Shakes to coliseum to switch to Sewer System
500 AD Sanitation to University
520 AD Commencing WLTCD
540 AD Sewer System to Harbor
680 AD Habor built Lord MacCauleys Largest civilizations: Mongols/OCC'er! /Americans/Aztecs to build 680 AD University to ToG
680 AD Carvans(coal) to caravan Disbanded settler
720 AD Caravan to University End WCTCD size 19
760 AD University to Issacs and ToG to Gunpowder (want those engineers!)
820 AD Gunpowder to Chemistry
820 AD Aztec /got Polythesism….yuck
820 AD MWHC given many gifts, but seems independent
860 AD Third Caravan(Coal) to Washington
860 AD MWHC/traded for Democracy!
940 AD Democracy established
960 AD Chemistry to Explosives (gave away all science to Aztecs/no gifts
980 AD Issacs to caravan
1000 AD Explosives to Metallurgy
1040 AD Metallurgy to Bridgebuilding
1080 AD Bridge Building to Navigation
1100 AD Gave away all science to MWHC and the Aztecs
1120 AD Navigation to Physics
1160 AD Physics to Magnetism
1200 AD Magnetism to Electricity
1200 AD 1st Engineer (got 5 caravans)
1240 AD Electricity to Refrigeration
1280 AD Refrigeration to Economics
1320 AD Economics to Steam Engine
1320 AD 2nd Engineer to Supermarket
1360 AD Steam Engine to Railroad
1360 AD Supermarket to Stock exchange
1380 AD Gaveaway science to Aztec and MWHC
1400 AD Railroad to Industrialization
1400 AD Stock exchange to Camel
1440 AD Industrialization to Corporation
1480 AD Corporation to Electronics
1480 AD Freight to factory
1510 AD Electronics to Refining
1510 AD MWHC Chivalry for Industrialization -we refused to give Railroad
1520 AD Factory to Hydro Plant
1530 AD Refining to Steel
1530 AD Caravan(silk) 240 gd to Washington
1540 AD Hydro Plant to Freight
1540 AD Commencing WLTPD
1550 AD Steel to Combustion
1580 AD Combustion to Automobile
1610 AD Automobile to Mass Production
1610 AD Freight(copper) 138gd to Zimbabwe (Barbarian)
1610 AD Tacitus Most powerful-Mongols/Aztec/Americans/OCCers
1630 AD Mass Production to Leadership
1630 AD Superhighway to Freight
1630 AD End WLTPD Size 24
1640 AD Starting Darwin
1650 AD Leadership to Tactics
1660 AD Completed Darwins Tactic to Machine tools to Miniaturization
1670 AD Alpine to Freight
1680 AD Miniaturization to Computer
1700 AD Computers to Mobile Warfare
1700 AD Terraformed Coal to Buffalo
1720 AD Mobile Warfare to Robotics
1740 AD Robotics to Flight
1752 AD Flight to Radio
1756 AD Sold Sewer System
1758 AD Radio to Advance Flight
1758 AD Sold Aqueduct
1764(?) AD Advance Flight to Rocketry
1770 AD Rocketry to Space Flight
1774 AD Manufacturing Plant to Wonder
1776 AD Space Flight to Plastics
1778 AD Apollo Project completed
1780 AD First Structure
1790 AD Plastics to Atomic Theory
1796 AD Atomic to NF
1802 AD NF to NP
1808 AD NP to Laser
1808 AD traded for Monothesism/gifted 100gd
1814 AD Laser to Superconductor
1820 AD SC to Fusion ….Can't build one turn modules…no more freight
1830 AD Fusion finally got 100/0/0 tax rate (completing 2nd Module
1836 AD launched Ship Estmated time of arrival 1851
1851 AD AC

Nice game Tom, looks like we finally have a competition.

Hey, did anyone terraform the Wheat to spice? What is better, getting a bigger city with Wheat food or having more trade with Silk?

AU

	24-02-2000 10:23									#50
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Aurelius—I transformed the wheat, but I did it late in the game after I’d grown my city. The extra arrows kept me at a tech every two turns after colossus expired. By then I could stand a food deficit.

	24-02-2000 19:27									#51
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I'm becoming more and more convinced that luck plays a huge part in OCC. As you can see from my log I was very lucky, I got no barbs from huts, lots of units early and a nomad almost straight away. I haven't really looked at other people's logs much but som people seemed to get really messed up in the all improatant early game by bad luck with huts. I think hut luck is a bit too important in OCC, so may I suggest an OCC comparison game where there are no huts. I'm not sure if you can do this in the scenario editor, but you could make a rule that you cannot pop any huts. It might be fun to give you an advanced unit or two to start with to make up for no huts, say 2 NONE armors or something. I think with no huts we would see landing dates a lot closer together, and the true champion of OCC would emerge (although I did well I don't consider myself that great at it).

Graag

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You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

	24-02-2000 21:43									#52
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Well, I don't think there is much doubt that Paul is the champion of OCC. So removing huts would pretty much assure him victory.

That said, I would agree that removing huts would provide a closer comparison game. I would go one step further and make the entire map visible at the start. Finding AI civs involves some luck while exploring.

I don't think we would need two armor to start. A couple of horsemen or chariots would be enough.

	24-02-2000 23:02									#53
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Tom, I agree on all accounts. Early contact is also way too important in OCC consdiering a lot of it is luck (again I got some good early contact in this game).
I think a totally visible map with no huts would make a great comparison game, and Paul's place as king of OCC could be confirmed.
I also agree the armors are unneccessary, I just thought they could be a bit of fun. Nothing to do with the comparison game really.

Graag

------------------
You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

	24-02-2000 23:25									#54
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I know what you are saying.Too many techs before Monarchy and you might as well hit restart.Barbs kill all your explorers just as you start the Collosus...etc
But that is a big part of OCC.Do I guard that hut till Monarchy?Do I build some roads first and hope to get some nons.These seemingly small decisions have a huge effect on the final outcome.

Originally,the fortnight proposal was to play maps rather than sites.Now it ain't much fun wandering around,not finding a spot till 1000bc and find out it is 2 squares from Rome
But,maybe a map with several spots with differing special combos fairly close by.
Or even revealing several spots.The player could decide which one looks best to them.Factors such as "How long is it gonna take to get there?".Will I have to cross unfriendly territory?""Is that extra whale worth an extra 500 years of wandering"

Or variations like no Shake's.No Ike's or,yes no huts.Or a map loaded with spots and you are on your own
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited February 24, 2000).]

	25-02-2000 01:52									#55
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Holy Cow you guys are on page two already... I better hurry up and play this one. So much for giving myself an advantage with by making the map, now I can't remember where anything is!!!

I think I can make an open map with no huts, and maybe no barbs either.

I better get out of here before I start reading page one.

	25-02-2000 02:14									#56
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Hey Sten, if you throw in a vet ironclad or an "old defender" - who knows - I might have a try?!
-------
SG (2)

	25-02-2000 02:25									#57
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Hoss,
My food box was always low in this game. I made a mistake of selling the granary at the onset of WLTCD to afford a growth improvement-aqueduct. I never realized that as the food box got bigger the food in the box got smaller and without a granary, it will fall below half during WLTCD growth. One of my many mistakes in this game. (I don't like building a granary in the first place!)

But concerning terraforming the Wheat to Silk, I really wondered about what is most important, getting the extra 2 citizens during pre size 20 City or all the trade with the multipliers? That River Silk might be valuable. But in this hilly game, food was probably essential.

By the way Hoss, nice score. You obviously have studied hard--though your hut science was most enviable. I take it you like OCC. Have you tried MP yet? What other games do you play?

AU

	25-02-2000 03:08									#58
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Graag,
I think managing luck is important or should I say minimizing bad luck is important. One thing about this competition, Paul seems to do well with or without good luck. But don't take those huts away! I always feel a bit of a thrill when spinning the wheel.

In my game, when my Chariot left the boat for the wood hut, it knew it was 20 tiles from home and the only emmisary of our civilization....should NEVER have risked it! And as some have said, there are moments to guard the hut for later. I little further away was MWHC or NGMAABTAMS for Never Gave me an Alliance but took all my science. I should have stayed in the boat and said hello early on.

When you do look at Paul's and Tom's logs, you see some good moves that demonstrate their OCC skills. I like that Tom built some early frieght with the boat. They both sold their coliseums after size 12. Lots of gold in those logs suggesting good diplomacy.

When I think back, I had a great start and could have insured a better end. Should have given the Vikings Bronze !

AU

	25-02-2000 03:14									#59
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NO DARK SPACE! No way. That is half the fun!
AU

	25-02-2000 10:09									#60
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AU, as far as huts go, I used my horse to go out and find huts right from the start (with my ship scouting the coastlines to help find them). All total I opened up five or six more than you, and yes I was lucky with the techs, but even better luck was getting two nomads. In the long run, though I think the hut hunting hurt me a bit since I was looking for huts instead of other civs. I noticed that Tom and Paul opened up quite a few less than me and it didn’t seem to hurt them.

I don’t think that I can play MP. I have v2.42(?) and I don’t think you can do it with that version. Anyway, my schedule is quite erratic at this time and I don’t see how I could convince someone to play when I’m available.

Other games? I played Age of Empires a bit and for awhile I was into Railroad Tycoon, but I’m not much of a game player. I always liked strategy/dominate the world games, and back in the days before computers I couldn’t get enough of Stratego and Risk. I guess that’s what drew me to CIV.

Concerning the extra citizens vs extra trade, I’m probably not the one to answer since I wasn’t smart enough to even build a collosseum to allow for faster growth without Shakespeare. I too would be interested in what others think.