30-11-2000 19:04									#31
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oops, forget what I said, I was misreading it....

	30-11-2000 20:02									#32
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It's alright oedo. Just thought I'd share it, not that's it sensational or anything, but still very unusual for me anyway. And it seems to highlight somewhat the theory that techs from huts usually follow certain laid out lines. This struck me as a rare exception to the rule.

	30-11-2000 20:32									#33
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this may be way off but it seems to me that what you get out of a hut is at least partially determined by your standing in the game. i say this from experience and not testing but i seem to have noticed that if i am behind in techs i am more likely to get a tech, if i am expanding quickly i am more likely to get barbarians, if i am expanding slowly i am more likely to get a settler, if the treasury is bad i get money and if i'm low on the military units i get mercenaries. i'm not saying that this is absolute it just seems to be weighted in that direction. if anyone has any comments i'd be interested.

	30-11-2000 20:50									#34
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I agree somewhat with Deity Dude. I think that the worse my starting position, the better my first few huts (money and advanced tribes).

	30-11-2000 21:59									#35
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I went through a patch some time back where I explored for ever before founding on large maps. Turns out to be too powerful a tactic and the resulting games are a bore so I stopped. But while I did it I tipped lots of huts. A point assuredly comes (before founding anyway) where you get a long succession of units (that's what makes it too powerful a tactic).

During that period I also had a strong feeling that there is a set sequence for what comes out (before the succession of units). Thus if one hut gave money, so would the next. Then it would be advances turn (again two at a time) then units etc. Not having founded I only got an advanced tribe once that I can recall (the city did not have a palace and when I then founded I didn't get one in that city either AND I couldn't build one. (Irksome - think I lost). And still having both settlers I didn't get any wandering tribes. (BTW, I'm sold on the "one wandering tribes per land mass" idea with a "non" settler counting as a wandering tribe.) Barbs seemed part of the sequence but an exception to the twice in a row aspect.

The reason this (if true) might not be apparent playing normally is that the AI is then tipping its fair share of huts; also, playing normally, tipping half a dozen or more huts in a single turn is not commonplace.

But, if I'm right, I rather hope we never work out the sequence. It would be rather horrid to have an Oedo cycle chart for the outcome of hut tipping. (For the same reason I have, as yet, resisted the temptation to work out the hut pattern.)

If there is a fixed sequence, the notion that the outcome is affected by standing would be wrong.

Says nothing about the type of advance generated though. For what little it is worth, when I sit with fingers crossed hoping I'm not just about to get Warrior Code I seem to be disappointed just as often whichever tribe I am (and just about every bloody time that's been, just lately ).


Fascinated to read your dream path, Oedo. I, too, give exploring a very high priority (I assume that's what motivates the dream). Hasn't occurred to me that it is worth delaying Monarchy for though. Might just give that a whirl, SP, single production and on a big map.

Won't be for a couple of days tho'. Bought Might and Magic VI from a bargain bin (while unsuccessfully looking for Civ2 MP) and am in the midst of a hack and slash fest just at the minute. -- Yes, yes I know little things please little minds.


[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited November 30, 2000).]

	01-12-2000 00:55									#36
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wow and thank you.

	01-12-2000 06:33									#37
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What East Street Trader said - my most recent game I did the goody hut thing and got a run of units, then 2 barbs in a row. I think there's growing evidence that they do run in cycles.

	01-12-2000 14:12									#38
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A is for Alphabet. I had the misfortune of getting one of my newest of 35 cities in Deity taken by the Barbarians before I built the temple so I could put the first citizen to work. As they wanted 1200 gold of my 1209 total, I let them walk into the city. It was to be several turns later before I could get a diplomat over there to bribe the city back (I was in WAR with the Americans and Aztecs and needed them to destroy city walls). In the time before I got my city back, there was this message window that said:

Barbarians discover Alphabet

First time I had seen them doing any scientific research, but I'm sure the "Players" among you have seen many such instances.

Just thought I'd bring it up.

Keep on Civin'

------------------

	01-12-2000 18:50									#40
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Barbaric research, smells like an oxymoron to me.

On huts, if you reload to see what other results you can get (a definite cheat), the choices do cycle on a single hut. However, the hut-to-hut choices do seem to repeat instead of cycle.

	02-12-2000 02:31									#41
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Scouse Gits,

After review of your data, I think there is a strong correlation between the total AI Value of the Tech and the frequency it is awarded.

The following table demonstrates this with the first seven techs.

_____SGs' Occurance________Frequency__________AI Value plus Civ Mod
_____Civ__Neu__Mil____Civ_____Neu_____Mil______Civ
__Neu__Mil

Hor ____2__132__169___0.30%__22.45%__33.53%___3___4___5
War____4___23__120___0.60%___3.91%__23.81%___3___4___5
Pot __135___27____0__20.09%___4.59%___0.00%___5___4___3
Cer __171__244__160__25.45%__41.50%__31.75%___5___5___5
Alp __393__237___76__58.48%__40.31%__15.08%___6___5___4
Bro __223__331__342__33.18%__56.29%__67.86%___5___6___7
Mas__171___21____3__25.45%___3.57%___0.60%___5___4___3

Please note that the freqency percentage is calculated against the total number of awarded techs.

For civilized AIs, the most frequently awarded tech is Alp, followed by Bro, Cer, Mas, Pot, War and Hor. This is also the rank order of the Civ modified AI value.
The neutral and militaristic AIs also follow this rule. This also tends to work for the more advanced techs.

Allowing for some kind of historical preference, like Egyptian masonry or Sioux horseback riding, I think it is possible that the modified AI value affects the order in which beginning techs are assigned.

I propose that the initial starting tech is randomly assigned with a preference for techs with a higher modified AI value and that subsequent starting techs are also assigned using the AI values. The menu of subsequent techs is probably limited to what could be normally be researched less the "killer" techs like writing or math.

I would like to look at your complete data set. I think it might show a few more historical preferences as well as show additional distribution patterns.

Congrats on a fine job,

Sequoya

[This message has been edited by Sequoya (edited December 01, 2000).]

	02-12-2000 03:32									#42
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Barbs can research well into the tech tree, but they can never use the knowledge to do anything. While testing barb city growth for my OCC 21 scenario, I saw them get about half a dozen techs. The research awarded has nothing to do with trade arrows; the city had so much corruption that there was never more than 1 arrow, and it was allocated to tax. It seems to be random, or possibly based on population. There were huge stretches where they got nothing, then they got something like 3 techs in 10 turns. But the tech had no affect on their ability to build things. They could only make settlers, warriors, and barracks.

It is just an odd bug with absolutely no effect on the game.

	08-12-2000 19:51									#43
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Hello, Scouse Gits!
This is my first post (sorry I discovered Apolyton only a few weeks ago and have been busy reading since then). Glad to tell you:'WoW'.
I'm currently doing research on a path close to yours: first results next week. Happy to say 'congratulations' meanwhile.

	12-12-2000 21:33									#44
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Here are the results I got, testing for my "3 arrows" strategy (have a look at it ! ).
The test included 100 game starts on a small random map with the Aztecs. It gave me 153 free techs (1.53 per start compared to your 1.33 for yellow civs, table 5):

Alphabet: 56
Cer Bur : 27
Bronze : 19
Code o L: 17
Masonry : 17
Pottery : 13
Currency: 3
Mysticis: 1

Those results are quite close to those you give table 2 (though the size of the map and the size of the test both are much smaller ).
The test I ran also included the results of entering one hut after start:
Warrior Code: 6
Horseback : 4
Bronze Work : 3
Pottery : 2
Masonry : 1
Writing : 1
Alphabet : 1
Cerem Burial: 1
Code of Laws: 1
(plus 58 units and 20 "Gold").
I found no link between game start and first goodie hut, but that must be studied more thoroughly

	07-09-2003 01:06									#45
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It looks there are still Civ2 mechanics that are not deciphered. Probably too hard for samson and solo. Hopefully it is irrelevant for the gameplay.

(I thought starting techs follow the same system as techs from huts and stealing, but it is different... )

	09-09-2003 12:33									#46
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Here's a screenshot of 9 starting techs.

Attachment: 9 techs.jpg
This has been downloaded 87 time(s).

	09-09-2003 17:41									#47
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savegame, ljcvetko?

	10-09-2003 10:51									#48
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Don't really understand (English is not my first language) but just in case I'll post another screenshot (there's plenty of those I can generate) and a save 4000 BC. It's OzzyKP's world we modified a little bit for our tuesday night eurotime diplo game. Atawa chose to start on New Zealand (Aztec) and his position is generating these results regularly.

Attachment: 9 techs 3.jpg
This has been downloaded 75 time(s).

	10-09-2003 10:53									#49
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And the save

Attachment: mo_b4000.sav
This has been downloaded 12 time(s).

	10-09-2003 17:48									#50
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9, pretty damn good.
Too bad we're not allowed to have that kind of start in a our MP games.

	10-09-2003 18:45									#51
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That does look good. Of course, whenever I get several free techs, I dread to see the start position.

	10-09-2003 20:28									#52
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With those nine techs, it would have to be really really really really bad for it to neutralize the advantage.

	10-09-2003 20:58									#53
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Starting techs are definitely linked not with quality of land, but with size of starting continent.
Although I don't have the proof for my claim, the fact that I couldn't get anything less than 3 starting techs in that position is pretty convincing circumstantial piece of evidence.

	10-09-2003 22:48									#54
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Yeah, I've gotten a lot of techs before and been in a real nice river valley with lots of specials and huts, thinking what's so bad about this.

Having to restart a lot of mp games because of techs allows you to see many openings. (at least what the opening screen shows)

	20-09-2003 20:51									#55
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Do I understand that this is not a true random start, but one where the starting positions of the civs have been predetermined?
If so could you please post the map - and, time permitting, I shall run a series of starts to see what will be seen ...

Thanks - this is important data

	20-09-2003 23:04									#56
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Not a random start.
Set position on a map larger than 10000.

The max number of techs received on start could depend on map size.
If we could test a start on a small island on a giga map, that might produce more than 9 start techs

Strange how I never got republic. I remember I got republic once or twice in civ 1. In civ 2 I don't remember starting with republic ever.


And it's true that the AI has unsinkable triremes from 4000 BC. In one game I was playing, the English built London on one island and York on another one.

Attachment: real world 4.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	02-10-2003 11:49									#57
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(Warning: I will cross-post this on the civ2 engine topic in case some people only read certain topics.)

I have recently been making a lot of attempts at early landing. I use 2.42, playing the English, deity, raging hoards, medium map. For early landing, I need a start without techs. My experience has been that no tech starts are not very common (less than 1 in 5?) Would I be more likely to get a no tech start if I bit the bullet and played as the Romans?

Also, despite a number of comments in this thread, my experience has been that the no tech starting positions are worse than those with initial techs. I have had quite a few very good initial positions that I couldn't use because of the starting techs whereas most of the ones I can use seem to have a lot of tundra around. It seems to me that the tech alocation algorithm is rather complicated. Any suggestions as to how I can increase the chances of a good, no tech start?

RJM at Sleeper's

	02-10-2003 13:52									#58
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Wow, someone did dig this one out...

9 starting techs is nice. I think they mostly appear as island civs, white colour... do civ characteristics play in as well?

	03-10-2003 14:57									#59
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quote: Originally posted by ljcvetko: And it's true that the AI has unsinkable triremes from 4000 BC. In one game I was playing, the English built London on one island and York on another one.

Although it seems as though the AI started with triremes, it would only be possible if it was a scenario and the particular civ had been given both a starting tech and a unit. The AI settlers do not necessarily start in the same position, although they often do. It is more common to have settlers split between two islands if the civ has been reborn though.

quote: Originally posted by rjm Also, despite a number of comments in this thread, my experience has been that the no tech starting positions are worse than those with initial techs. I have had quite a few very good initial positions that I couldn't use because of the starting techs whereas most of the ones I can use seem to have a lot of tundra around. It seems to me that the tech alocation algorithm is rather complicated. Any suggestions as to how I can increase the chances of a good, no tech start?

The chances of getting techs with your start depends upon how the computer rates your starting position, not how you rate it. Because the white civ are placed on the map first, then they are least likely to get free techs because the AI will place the other civs after them and they will have to be a certain distance away (differs according to map size) before you'll get free techs. Because the pruple civ is placed last then there is a greater chance that they will be closer to more other civs than the others who have been placed and so will tend to get more techs. Unfortunately, the distance from other civs and the quality of the land depends upon the AI, so you'll not get any techs if you're far away from the other civs and surrounded by grassland, but with no production capacity or decent specials. The way the terrain is rated is the same as the way the AI civs choose which city squares to work. Therefore, bloody awful!
I once had a start with the Mongols and the AI gave me four free techs and started me in a mix of desert and plains. Fair enough you might think, but my starting position was one square away from a four-special spot!
I, er, won easily.
Basically, then, it's not how a player would rate the start spot that determines free techs but how the computer rates it. But I'm sure that your tech cost depends upon the first one you choose to research, and those free techs are literally free!

	03-10-2003 17:16									#60
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Yes, that's the real advantage of techs at the start, they don't count the beaker count. It's nice getting to research your 7th tech like it's your first.