10-08-2001 03:16									#31
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Yeah, but whatever, that term has been used to refer to the indigenous population of the Andes at that time.

you can stop playing wise ass now

	10-08-2001 03:36									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by campmajor! Unlike Serapis IV I do not want a political correct game. Just include the civs that were important, at least in their time. It is not important to have a global spread of them...

Who ever said I wanted a politically correct game? I want a balanced game, I want a world map thats packed with Civs. I don't want games like I had in Civ2, where one civ had both North and South America to develop without any harrassment from other civs. That's not fun, I want a packed planet and global competition for domination. Too bad we can't have an Aussie faction (I leave that to the modders) That way Civ may be semi-realistic, none of this 2010 and half the globe doesn't even have cities crap.

	10-08-2001 03:39									#33
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion who's actually the dumbarse who came up with the idea of only putting 16 civs in?

The same accountant who decided to milk the gamers for all the money they could by ensuring that there will be an expansion pack (aka large patch) later.

	10-08-2001 03:39									#34
	Put an end to popups!

Shade,
You seem to be confusing the Etruscans (in Dutch: Etrusken) and the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians were the mother civilization of the Carthagians and had their homeland in presentday Lebanon. It was one of the greatest, if not the greatest 'naval' civilization of all time, they sailed all the way to England and possibly even to Subsaharan Africa (Nigeria or surroundings) IIRC. Carthage was originally just a Phoenician colony (Carthage being Phoenician for 'new city' or something like that) and had a Phoenician religion, language etc. Once the Phoenician homeland was overrun by IIRC Persians, the colonies were on their own and because of it's dominance and strategical position Carthage became the capitol of this new colonial empire. Over time this new empire evolved and is thus by many people no longer seen to as Phoenician but as a distinctly new empire, Carthagian. It's religion, language and culture still had much in common with the original Phoenician civilization and it's thus by many still seen as part of the Phoenician civilization (more or less comparable with Prussia->Germany, Celts->Irish, Phoenician->Maori, etc).

Edit: added mention of naval capabilities and confused Lebanon for Syria

Last edited by Locutus on 10-08-2001 at 03:50

	10-08-2001 04:02									#35
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Locutus:Let's go back in my memory.hmm
Arma virumque cano,Troja qui primus ab oris Italiam,Fato profugus,Roma venit...
In Italy there were first the Etrurians(Etrusken) they got lost somehow,not that much is know about them.Then there also where the Phoenicians(Feniciers??) and I am pretty sure they occupied Northern Italy.(how Carthage really was settled I do not know for sure but) In the Aeneis it is told that a princes(dido) fie from her homeland(Italy) and arrived on the north coast of Africa. There a Shah/Sultan/whatever offered her all the land she could circumvent(???) with the skin of 1 ox.On that land Carthage was build.Then there is the whole thing with Aeneas,falling in love,cursing,and Aeneas traveling to Italy.

Shade

	10-08-2001 05:29									#36
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I really want to check out civ3.com now but I do want to set this straight first:

Yes, I read Vergilius as well (parts in Latin, parts in Dutch and parts in English). The Etruscans were the first real civilization in Italy. Indeed, little is known about them but they didn't 'get lost' mysteriously or anything. The one thing we *do* know about them is their demise. After being ruled by 4 Etrurian kings (rex), one city broke off from the rule of the Etruscan city league and more or less declared independence. This city over time developed it's own culture and religion and eventually its military might became so powerful it could conquer it's former Etruscan rulers as well as the rest of Italy and later the entire Mediterrean. Yes, you guessed it, this city was called Rome. Because of this early domination of Etruscan kings, the Roman word 'rex' has a very negative sound to it and for this reason Ceasar didn't want to be called 'king' but invented his own title 'Ceasar' (in Dutch today known as 'Keizer'). So the Etruscans were eventually conquered by a their immediate neighbours (Rome lies right next to the Etruscan heartland, today known as Toscane) rather than getting lost mysteriously. It were also these very Etruscans that ruled Northern Italy, not the Phoenicians (until the Celts conquered it and founded what the Romans would call Gallia Cisalpina (=Gallia on this side of the Alps)). Before the Etruscans there were no 'real' civilizations in Northern Italy and after them there were, as I said, only the Gauls and then the Romans.
You are right about the story of Dido though, except for one important detail: she didn't flee from Etruscan Italy but from Asian Phoenicia (Sidon IIRC). No offense, but your memory seems to be messed up in this issue. Check any history book or website you can find (a simple search on Google would suffice - in English or Dutch) and you'll find that the Etruscans/Etrusken had their heartland in Toscane and expanded into North Italy while the Phoenicians had their heartland in Lebanon and expanded all over the Mediterrean (but not Italy).