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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
Harlan: you are absolutely right about the Dutch in the Indonesia area. They should have stuck to what they knew best (ie trade with the natives) there, too. |
I think you miss the point - the extermination of natives was part and parcel, and colonization was part of their trading strategy, not a thing apart from it. Saying they should have traded with natives without harming them is like saying the Spanish should have sent over missionaries without conqeuring south america - its certainly true from an ethical point of view, but its also deeply ahistorical - such a thing would never have happened, because the ethical views you held were not held by the historical protagonists - or, for the most part, even part of their world views.
This is all in response to your claim that there were "reasons" why Spain was excluded from civ3, and the implication that it was because of what they did in building their empire. If that is so, none of the "western" civs belong in civ3. The spanish, french, english, americans (and the Dutch) all commited sins, the sins of their era. Without being relativists, or justifying them ,we can certainly say that those are part of history, part of civ, and do not justify the rancour you have brought to this thread.
(The one european civ that commited sins that were not of its time - that were a throwback to the worst of stages of history western man had long since passed, is one that is included in Civ3 - the Germans - yet I cant see excluding the Germans, for the sake of their long and generally honorable history before 1933, and for the need for civ to be inclusive of all major historical protagonists)
If you deny that you claim that Spain should be out of civ3, then i think this discussion is no longer on topic, and should be moved to the off topic forum.
LOTM
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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 LOVE THE CANADIANS!! LOVE THE CANADIANS!!
quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
I think you miss the point - the extermination of natives was part and parcel, and colonization was part of their trading strategy, not a thing apart from it. Saying they should have traded with natives without harming them is like saying the Spanish should have sent over missionaries without conqeuring south america - its certainly true from an ethical point of view, but its also deeply ahistorical - such a thing would never have happened, because the ethical views you held were not held by the historical protagonists - or, for the most part, even part of their world views. |
If they could trade peacefully with the Iroquois, why not in the east?
The Spanish, of course, should not have sent missionaries at all. 
quote:
This is all in response to your claim that there were "reasons" why Spain was excluded from civ3, and the implication that it was because of what they did in building their empire. |
I have laboriously explained several times why the Spanish, despite all their conquest, are IMHO not on the same level as the British and the French, for the purposes of this game, or even the Dutch who are also not in Civ3. Being unethical has nothing to do with it. Look it up (sigh).
LOVE THE CANADIANS!! LOVE THE CANADIANS!!
Waku: Read my posts and I'm sure you'll understand. It's all there.
El Awrence: The problem is that there are so many colonial powers, and Firaxis has given Europe a limited number of slots. If you want Spain in - or the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Danish, the Belgians; did I forget someone? - Britain, France or Germany has to go.
But if you want to plead for the Spanish anyway, simply do so without the bs, there is plenty of fame as it is. 4% is less than 40%, but it's still a big chunk of the world.
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Jay Bee
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Valladolid, CA
Jan 1970
time: 06:15
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(I hope MarkG and the other mods do not get mad at me for revealing info that belongs in the secret world of the Staff Forum -- yeah that one you can't see anymore since the upgrade)
Not long ago, in the staff forum, there was a very interesting discussion about what the behavior of a staff member & mod should be when faced against an extremely obnoxious poster. You know, the type of guy/gal who keeps posting crap with the only apparent intention to upset as many people as possible. Someone suggested that the best way to deal with this kind of affairs was to elaborate a lenghty, nasty reply and, in the very last moment, close the browser instead of hitting the submit button.
I do not mind to admit that I have followed that someone's advice quite a few times after reading some of the monstrousities (I can't find another word to better describe it) that Ribannah has posted to this thread. Last time it was right after reading her astonishing rhetorical question to Harlan:
quote:
why don't you look it up yourself before you accuse someone of "inaccuracies", |
(of course not the first time she made such a "pot'n'kettlish" kind of assert).
I hit the exit button. I opened the thread again a few hours later only to find that, to my dismay, Miss "I-know-everyting-and-you-all-are-awfully-ignorant" has added yet another weapon to her neverending arsenal of absurdity: the personal insult. That's really cheap, I think.
I have decided not to hit the exit button again. However the post is heavily toned down. After all I can't help being a Spanish caballero  .
Miss, your level of arrogance, bigotry, hypocrisy and ignorance seems endless. I am not going to respond to the unbeliebably huge amount of stupidity that you have spilled over this and other threads. As we all have seen, it's a total waste of time.
Miss, you and only you have spoiled what could have been a very interesting, fruitful, and serious conversation. I had posted on this thread more than a week ago:
quote:
It's perfectly fine that you disagree with me all you want. And if you do it in a friendly and constructive manner, just as you've done this time, so much the better. And I thank you for that. It helps me look at the other side of things. |
You decided to take the opposite path. You went straight on to the strategy of lie, fact distortion, out-of-context quotations, selective reading of texts, deliberate omission of facts... and finally, personal insult. Let me ask you this, Miss: that path you've chosen has taken you, where exactly? You have gathered support from nobody (excepting the inevitable clowns, of course -- you can keep those for you all the time you want).
Miss, you have made a fool of yourself here. I know you will refuse to admit it. But I would humbly dare to suggest you to save this thread to a diskette, keep it in a safe place and, when that infantile anger has definitely faded away, re-read it.
Miss, in the beginning I thought you were trolling, just like Kitten. But this seems to be something deeper. It's real hard for me to understand why so much anger. As I said previously, you may hate or love the Spanish, you may think their absence from Civ3 is a mistake or a blessing, you can say whatever you want, of course, but... was it really necessary to take such an obsessive stance? Why couldn't you debate in a respectful manner? I am sure you could have gotten some of your points straight and most (if not all) of us would have agreed. Now... well, now, no thanks.
Miss, the Duke of Alba died many years ago. Please let him rest in peace.
_____
Everyone: I suggest we all let this thread die. This has gone way too far I think, and a Civ3 forum is clearly not the place for a thread like this.
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21-08-2001 01:21
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