10-09-2001 12:43									#31
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I believe that Urban Ranger and some of the fellows here can read Chinese on the web (Maybe you can read Chinese books too.) Here's some reference that may be of interest.

ªZ¸gÁ`­n (Gists of Military Classics)
Edited sometimes in the Sung period (1044 AD)

Quite a few Chinese web sites quoted it as one of the earliest encyclopedia of military. (The famous books like Sun Tzu were covering strategy while this book covers both strategy and tactics). I am not going to research for merely a name in such a detail. But you may.

Some Chinese explanation underneath
¥þ®Ñ¦@¦³¥|¤Q¨÷¡A¤À«e«á¨â¶°¡A«e¶°±Ô¨î«×¤Q¤­¨÷¡AÃ䨾
¤­¨÷¡C«á¶°±Ô¾ú¥N¾Ôª§¬G¨Æ¤Q¤­¨÷¡B¥e­Ô¤­¨÷¡C

­x °V ½Ò µ{ Á¿ ±Â ­p ¹º (Military Training Course Teaching Plan)
[for Taiwan]

Google search url

http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...3M%A7L&hl=zh-TW


Sorry I have not confirmed the links first. The link is really broken.
http://www.youth.com.tw/member/Plan_02.htm

Contains a very precise summary (two sentences! ) on the main composition of Chinese military. Should be a trustable source. Before 960 AD, Chinese used combined arms tactics, with fortified infantry as main defense and cavalry as offensive arm.
After 960 AD, infantry became the main arm of Chinese military.

I still cannot find the name of any famous Chinese military cavalry units. Two of them sound okay in Chinese but they were not covering the correct Golden period (in fact, they were "barbarians" units in strict Chinese sense)

They are
©ä¤l°¨ and Å»ÃMÀç

[edited: provide the google links instead of the broken Taiwan link]

For those who can type in Chinese, try search for ¤¤°ê ÃM§L.
(Chinese and Cavalry) You'll find a lot of links to

.
.
.

Age of Kings!!!

Last edited by Chow Yun Fat on 10-09-2001 at 17:48

	10-09-2001 17:15									#32
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Alas, the link seems to be broken

	10-09-2001 17:30									#33
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I think that special chinese unit should be a worker that costs less than in other civ's... but perhaps this would give Chinese too much advantage in the long term....

If not a worker than a Philosopher that could go around and create veteran units out of ordinary ones like, or something unconventionsal like this since chinese strenght was in numbers and culture ans not in the army as it seems to me...

The name for this Raider unit could have been something more oriental .. .not a raider

	11-09-2001 04:46									#34
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Let's stay on topic. This is not the "what should the Chinese UU be" thread (there are others that have discussed that), but the "if the Chinese unit is the Rider in function and appearance, what's a better name for it?" thread.

	12-09-2001 03:32									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Well, I still think the Chinese UU should be called Crossbowman (...), but since we're stuck with a cavalry unit anyway, how about something like Soulun Horseman, Soulun Cavalry, Soulun Raider or just plain Soulun?

Yes! I like it. Much better than "Rider".

	13-09-2001 09:27									#36
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Sheng-chu'an!

For those of you who haven't played CivII's epic expansion pack, Conflicts in Civilization, there were many custom units created by the programmers for various civs. In the Mongol Hordes scenario, the Mongols attack with Elite and Light Cavalry, and the Chinese respond with a special heavy cavalry of their own, the Sheng-chu'an! It sounds cool, looked cool, and was a fairly decent unit. I don't see why Firaxis didn't chose this name for it's 'Rider' unit. That sounds kind of vague. Anyway, let's see what happens. All for Sheng-chu'an, post "aye." Just kidding, of course.

	13-09-2001 11:58									#37
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conclusion : crossbowman on the horse.

	22-09-2001 01:56									#38
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A good name for the Rider unit would be "TieQi" or "TieCh'i",
Tie means Steel, and Ch'i mean knight, calavary. These were the elite unit of Chinese Calavary. They wre widely used during the Wudi's campaint to drive the Huns from Northen China.

	22-09-2001 02:56									#39
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"Koh-nee-choa" IMO is the best name for it. Not that I have anything against "Rider"... But it's kind of silly, like naming a infantry unit "Walker", or an aircraft "Flyer".
Koh-nee-choa .

	22-09-2001 02:58									#40
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Koh-nee-choa?
what is that? are you just making it up?

	22-09-2001 03:40									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dida A good name for the Rider unit would be "TieQi" or "TieCh'i", Tie means Steel, and Ch'i mean knight, calavary. These were the elite unit of Chinese Calavary. They wre widely used during the Wudi's campaint to drive the Huns from Northen China.

Finally a decent suggestion. Now we just have to get someone to notice it.

	22-09-2001 04:02									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Dida Koh-nee-choa? what is that? are you just making it up?

It's my answer to the thread topic "What would you name the Chinese UU then?". I'm not saying it's the best pick, but that's what I'm going to name it.

And I'm not just making it up, thank you very much.

Koh-nee-choa

	22-09-2001 06:00									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf It's my answer to the thread topic "What would you name the Chinese UU then?". I'm not saying it's the best pick, but that's what I'm going to name it. And I'm not just making it up, thank you very much. Koh-nee-choa

Come on people, if this name is not made up, it's at least somewhat strange, because not even a chinese could understand what that means.

	22-09-2001 06:10									#44
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I don't see why anyone hasn't said anything about Sheng-chu'an. If the makers of Civ2 actually used it for a Chinese horse unit it must mean something good. Where are Chinese speakers in this forum?

TieCh'i sounds good also. I posted earlier in this thread that Ch'i meant "extraordinary" and referred to elite troops. Which works well in this context too. I thought "mama" means cavalry in Chinese, strange as that seems.

I agree Koh-nee-choa sounds made up, unless it is spelled phonetically, or in some very strange spelling system. What's that supposed to mean?

	22-09-2001 06:26									#45
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Sheng sounds very close to chinese pronouciation of God, and Chu'an very close to the word 'gun'.
But there are tons of Chinese words that pronouce the same but means different things.

	22-09-2001 16:40									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Dida A good name for the Rider unit would be "TieQi" or "TieCh'i", Tie means Steel, and Ch'i mean knight, calavary. These were the elite unit of Chinese Calavary. They wre widely used during the Wudi's campaint to drive the Huns from Northen China.

Tie is "iron," and qi is "steed." Literally "iron steed," but not in line of how Imperial China named its units.

	22-09-2001 16:51									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan I don't see why anyone hasn't said anything about Sheng-chu'an. If the makers of Civ2 actually used it for a Chinese horse unit it must mean something good. Where are Chinese speakers in this forum?

You called?

Sheng can mean a number of characters including "rise/raise," "born/birth/alive," "voice/sound," "rope," "thirfty," "saint," "win," "prosperous," and "remains," among others. Chuan can mean "river," "drill/wear," "ship," "teach/legacy/send."

None of the combo makes sense, I'm afraid.

	22-09-2001 18:05									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Tie is "iron," and qi is "steed." Literally "iron steed," but not in line of how Imperial China named its units.

how is Qi 'steel'? do you speak chinese at all?
It means mounted troops.

	22-09-2001 20:32									#49
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I'd like to see Dan saying something about a change in the Chinese CSU unit (a.k.a. Rider).

	23-09-2001 06:06									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dida how is Qi 'steel'? do you speak chinese at all? It means mounted troops.

Steel? What steel? I said "steed," as in "horses." Qi originally means "steed," but can be used to refer to "cavalry."

I actually don't speak Chinese. I am just guessing. Good one, eh?

	24-09-2001 08:53									#51
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Sorry I am very bad in guessing meaning in piyi. Here's my best guess with some help from the fellows here.

Sheng Chu'an
It can be, literally,
'God Gun' - 'Experts in guns'
'God Opportunity' - 'Experts in timing' (This was a real unit in the Ming or Qing dynasty. Supposingly consisted of elite units using guns)
'Upper General' - 'Grand Marshal' (Usually a term praising a good general. And Chinese generals usually rode horses to battle)

Tie qi
'Iron Steed' - 'Strong Cavalry' (This term was borrowed in contemporary time as policemen on a motorcycle but the word origin was unknown) I think it is a general term used to praise the endurance of cavalry.

The two phrases are both complimentary in meaning.

I still have reservation in choosing riders as Chinese UU. The Chinese ways of using cavalry were differed from the west but so were the infantry and bowmen. Chukonu (Auto-crossbow firing 10 arrows at a time), though not used as often as infantry, were radically different from western techs.

	24-09-2001 14:03									#52
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"Sheng" could mean Holy or Divine

"Sheng Ji" /God Opportunity - Miraculous, Omnipresence


"Tie Qi " refers to Mongolian Heavy Caverly, later also Applied to Manchurian Heavy Caverly

	24-09-2001 14:44									#53
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QUOTE] Originally posted by Chow Yun Fat

I still have reservation in choosing riders as Chinese UU. The Chinese ways of using cavalry were differed from the west but so were the infantry and bowmen. Chukonu (Auto-crossbow firing 10 arrows at a time), though not used as often as infantry, were radically different from western techs. [/QUOTE]



I don't know where Chukonu comes from, but I did see a reference on Lian Nu (repeating Crossbow, suppoesly it fires 2 bolts in quick sucession)

Early Chinese Crossbows,when they are in Mass usage is not the relatviely small ones you see in Europe. The early version required great Strength to Load the bolts . A Han Era carving illustrate this action,placing the crossbow upright,the soldier stand on his bow and pull back the spring mechanism with both hands, to load the bolts.
More powerful versions required 2 men . By the time they come up with something smaller and more elegant, they find the bow much more cost effective.

To outsiders, Chinese Riders is often the First and last thing they saw.

Some suggestion for name,

Biao Qi - Eilte/Decorated Caverly

Qi Shi - Knight, Rider

Yu Lin Jun - Imperia Army

Jing Jun/Jing Wei Jun - Imperial Guards

Huang Shi - Emperor's host

XianFeng -Vanguard

BaQi Jun - (8 banners Army)

DangKou QiBin -bandits Smashing Caverly

Qin Huang Qibin- Caverly in the serivice of Emperor

Po Yi Qibin - Barbarian Conqurering Caverly

Qing Qi -Fast/Light Caverly


Xiao Qi -Fierce Caverly


Wei Wu QiBin - Commanding/Imposing Caverly

	24-09-2001 17:43									#54
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Guangrong:

It seems that you have offered the best options for naming Chinese UUs.

I have read the famous "Sango" novels for getting the idea on the "10-arrow repeating crossbow". I have read more references now and I believe it should be a repeating crossbow but it's not firing 10 arrows at a time.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...%A9%B8&hl=zh-TW

Sorry that it's in traditional Chinese.

I have not checked the original reference stated in that webpage. So don't take it as an authoriative guide.

	24-09-2001 22:47									#55
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Sheng-ch'uan means Victory Guarantee. Sheng means victory, and chu'an means guarantee. When a Chinese says that he securely controls the sheng-ch'uan (or sheng-quan) he means that he has victory guaranteed for him. (The full expression is wen-tsau-sheng-ch'uan or wen-cao-sheng-quan meaning "firmly controlling victory guarantees".)

Note: you'd notice that there're 2 ways to spell Chinese words in English. I try to use both, as far as possible, and i'll separate them with a slash or an 'or'.

Mama doesn't mean horse or cavalry. Mama means mother, duh. Ma, pronounced with a low falling tone, means horse. (Ma pronounced with a high tone still means mother.) Cavalry is ch'i-ping or qibing in Chinese, depending on which spelling system you use. Ch'i/qi means 'riding' and 'ping/bing' means soldier. So the whole thing means 'a riding soldier' or cavalry.

T'ieh-ch'i/tie-qi is short for t'ieh-ch'i-ping/tie-qi-bing which means iron-riding-soldiers, or iron cavalry, or elite cavalry.

As for the 10-shot arrows mentioned in the excellent Sanguo novels, those are the Chu-Ko-Nu or Zhuge-Nu found in Age of Empires II. Chu-Ko-Nu means Chu-Ko's Crossbows, with Chu-Ko being the inventor.

Last edited by ranskaldan on 24-09-2001 at 23:02

	25-09-2001 03:10									#56
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Wow,
Suddenly we go from having no good name to having too many! Anyone have any favorites from all of these?

I wish there was some way we could know the Firaxis folks are listening, and get them to actually change the name of the Rider unit.

	25-09-2001 06:10									#57
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Well, I'd pick T'ieh-ch'i, or, if you want an English name so that everyone can understand, the Iron Cavalry. Just a name change and we can keep the same stats and same graphics.

Chu-Ko-Nu would be nice too, though people might start complaining that it's a ripoff from Age of Kings. The old Sheng-ch'uan or Victory Guarantee just sounds too lame to me. C'mon, the Chinese UU - Victory Guarantee?!

	25-09-2001 09:21									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Wow, Suddenly we go from having no good name to having too many! Anyone have any favorites from all of these?

I still like mine the best

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger My suggestion for the unit is hurang. Hu is tiger, and rang stands for repulsing or taking by force. Another possibility is hubai, where bai means "breaking with hand."

Another good one is Shen Gei ("god opportunity") which is what Mr Chow has, though he was a bit off with the pinyin

Yet another good one is Po Lu ("defeating of enemy").


ranskaldan,

quote: Sheng-ch'uan means Victory Guarantee. Sheng means victory, and chu'an means guarantee.

Hm, it is suan ("calculation, chance") in pinyin. That's why I never got what Sheng-ch'uan is supposed to be.

	25-09-2001 21:40									#59
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Urban Ranger:

In pinyin it's sheng-quan, not sheng-suan.
According to my dictionary:
Quan. (falling tone) deed, ticket, guarantee

Your suggestion of Polu would sound better with a -jun. Polu means the action of defeating the barbarians. Polu-jun means the people who defeat the barbarians.

To be truthful, i've never heard the names 'hurang' or 'hubai' in my life. And 'bai' means breaking by hand, but not in the sense of defeating someone. It means breaking open, say, corn, or something. 'hubai' sounds a bit off. 'Hurang' on the other hand sounds okay...

And as for Shen-Gei, well, i've never heard that one either. 'Gei' in the sense of 'to give' is pretty colloquial and wasn't really used to name imperial armies and the like.

The ones that are pretty well attested in the various history books and historical novels i've read are:

T'ieh-Ch'i/Tieqi - Iron Cavalry
Chu-Ko-Nu/Zhuge-Nu - The Fast-firing Crossbows in Age of Kings
Polu-Chun/Polu-Jun - Barbarian-Breaking Warriors
Tangk'ou-Chun/Dangkou-Jun - Enemy-Cleaning Warriors (Clean as in Clean away, flush away)
Piao-Ch'i/Biaoqi - Elite Cavalry
Yulin-Chun/Yulin-Jun - Imperial Guards

(There are two ways to spell Chinese words in the Roman alphabet. I gave both.)

And of course, i prefer T'ieh-Ch'i, since it's basically a rider, with good defense, so we can use the old Rider stats and graphics, and it's authentic too.

Last edited by ranskaldan on 25-09-2001 at 21:51

	26-09-2001 10:44									#60
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with China's 5000 year history in warfare you can pretty much choose whatever you fancy...

I think the convention in Civ 2 is to name units after their english translation rather than how they sound in the native language. I favour TiehChi as well personally - it's one of the most famous chinese military cavalry units.

Tieh literally translates to "Iron", so I think something along the lines of Iron Knights or Iron Riders would be appropriate. (even if they actually used steel. Not too sure about the steel bit. Could be just iron)

I was rather surprised however that they chose a cavalry unit to be UU for China... maybe it's because others already have cavalry or something.

We could always go for the UU to be Shao-Lin monks