09-09-2001 21:42									#31
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Felch, if some french guy notices your poll...

Europeans are just a bit proud of their nations and culture
Perhaps you noticed the discussion why spain is not included
cause south america up to mexico was strongly influenced by their colonisation.
So you should be relieved that there are *only* 3 european civs/nations *grin*

Arent

	11-09-2001 04:42									#32
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There should be more civs on all continents (we need SOMEONE on South America or Australia or Antarctica ) Anyway, I support the European civs being in the game for the following reasons:

1) The Europeans had a tremendous impact on the history of the world. The Europeans and European-derived nations are the most technologically advanced nations in the world (and have been for quite some time). If you look at a map of the world and what areas have belonged to European powers in some period between 1500 and 1914, you will find all of the world colored in except Ethiopia, parts of the Middle East, Thailand, China, Mongolia, Korea and Japan. The English have been the only people to have owned an entire CONTINENT (Australia). Remember, the Sun never sets on the British Empire.

2) Remember where the game is going to sell the most copies. North America and Europe most likely. The Americans, Japanese and a handful of European civs are probably enough to keep a lot of people happy. Perhaps Australia and Canada too, but they have small populations and are part of the British Commonwealth anyway.

3) Who cares, anyway? With these user-friendly tweaking tools they're going to give us, I'm pretty certain we'll be able to change what civs are in the game, and hopefully add our own to the existing list. Consider this before you complain about what civs are in the game.

	11-09-2001 05:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by JellyDonut 3) Who cares, anyway? With these user-friendly tweaking tools they're going to give us, I'm pretty certain we'll be able to change what civs are in the game, and hopefully add our own to the existing list. Consider this before you complain about what civs are in the game.

Agreed. I'm quite sure you'll be seeing more civs added soon after the game comes out. My only hope is that the graphics made my the modding community are good.

	11-09-2001 06:10									#34
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I think it is absoƒuckinglutely rediculous that Europe has more civs than any other continent. What's Europe's claim to fame?

Conquering the bloody world is Europe's claim to fame.

Using Chinese technology to subjugate and exploit native peoples around the world.

As opposed to not using Chinese technology despite being China and ignoring the rest of the world out of arrogance?

Maybe the Dutch should be lauded because they ran guns into Japan.

Yes, they should be.

Or maybe we should reward the enslavement of millions of Native Americans by giving the Spanish a civ.

Makes sense.

Or maybe, since the Muscovites based their power on conquering their technologically backward eastern neighbors while using serf labor to fuel their autocracy, Russia should be rewarded.

Civ3's Russia appears to be USSR as opposed to the Empire.

Or maybe Belgium should be given a civ because King Leopold looted the Congo, and enslaved the natives.

Not, it should be given a civ because it was the only country to rival Britain's industrialization in the 19th century.

Or maybe we should reward Europe because now they're nice people and are giving apologies at U.N. conferences and such.

No, we shouldn't. Civ is a game of realpolitik and apologizing for something one of your ancestors did without consulting with you is idiotic.

But if you were to take Europe today, it would be reasonable to have even fewer civs, possibly the EU and Russia.

Perhaps, the EU doesn't seem very integrated right now. However, the game does span 6000 rather than 20 years.

America is a much gentler Imperial power than any of the European powers were. At least we try to do the right thing sometimes.

When, in the period of 1860 to 1960, did US try to do the right thing? Wilson's League of Nations was basically a ripoff of the earlier Concert of Europe and nothing else comes to mind.

	11-09-2001 06:11									#35
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I think it is absoƒuckinglutely rediculous that Europe has more civs than any other continent. What's Europe's claim to fame?

Conquering the bloody world is Europe's claim to fame.

Using Chinese technology to subjugate and exploit native peoples around the world.

As opposed to not using Chinese technology despite being China and ignoring the rest of the world out of arrogance?

Maybe the Dutch should be lauded because they ran guns into Japan.

Yes, they should be.

Or maybe we should reward the enslavement of millions of Native Americans by giving the Spanish a civ.

Makes sense.

Or maybe, since the Muscovites based their power on conquering their technologically backward eastern neighbors while using serf labor to fuel their autocracy, Russia should be rewarded.

Civ3's Russia appears to be USSR as opposed to the Empire.

Or maybe Belgium should be given a civ because King Leopold looted the Congo, and enslaved the natives.

Not, it should be given a civ because it was the only country to rival Britain's industrialization in the 19th century.

Or maybe we should reward Europe because now they're nice people and are giving apologies at U.N. conferences and such.

No, we shouldn't. Civ is a game of realpolitik and apologizing for something one of your ancestors did without consulting with you is idiotic.

But if you were to take Europe today, it would be reasonable to have even fewer civs, possibly the EU and Russia.

Perhaps, the EU doesn't seem very integrated right now. However, the game does span 6000 rather than 20 years.

America is a much gentler Imperial power than any of the European powers were. At least we try to do the right thing sometimes.

When, in the period of 1860 to 1960, did US try to do the right thing? Wilson's League of Nations was basically a ripoff of the earlier Concert of Europe and nothing else comes to mind.

Although, if you can demonstrate to me that England, France, Germany, Russia, and the US never used religion as a reason to wage war or colonize then I might buy your first arguement too.

Prove to me that India, China, and Japan never used religion to wage war or to persecute minorities. I won't have any problems giving examples of that.

	12-09-2001 19:01									#36
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There aren't enough European civs. Spain should be in, as should a civ representing Scandinavia. Given the Polish dominance of the 15th century they should be in aswell.

	12-09-2001 19:01									#37
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dp

	12-09-2001 19:31									#38
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quote: Korea, the Anasazi, Mali, Polynesia, Canada, and Australia could all be civs placed in favor of some little European country that enjoys raping the world. Although you would probably discount them because North Korea is a ruthless tyranny, the Anasazi never conquered anybody, or Canda and Australia are either insignificant or else based on the expulsion of the native

In this game haven´t to appear the peaceful countries in the world, must appear the countries that have most importance in the world. The company has tried to make a big Anglo-centrism game and don´t appear important cultures as Spanish, Scandinavian (Swedish or Danish), East European (Polish or Hungarian), Arabs or Ottomans turks...they aren´t inocent childs along their history but who can say that their country are totally peaceful...

Korea? there weren´t a war between North and South?
Canada?Australia?didn´t they send troops in WWs?
Swiss?the Swiss mercenaries were famous in XV,XVI XVII centuries.
Jamaica?it was a pirate island in XVII and XVIII centuries.
Tibet?Are you sure that never a Tibetanian horde attacked a neighbour town??

Oh my god!why not a small pink rabbit civilization against sweet happy teddies...

	13-09-2001 05:50									#39
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if the game is about important countries then Portugal, Spain, Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Turkey, Italy should be included...

but if it's only about the originals civilizations, then the americans should not be included as they were English, Spain for Argentina, Portugal for Brazil, France and England for Canada and Australia, Ethrusques(spelling?), Rome for Italy...
i don't know what makes them pick up the civs included...

Egypt no doubt should be included, same as Greece, Celts, Vikings, Russians...
Aztecas, Mayas, Incas...

Spain and Portugal undoubtely should be included as they discovered half of the world...
Germans , French...
Chinese, Japanese..

	13-09-2001 22:03									#40
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One thing everyone keeps forgetting, not everyone plays using the world map...

	14-09-2001 17:08									#41
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone One thing everyone keeps forgetting, not everyone plays using the world map...

I hear you MacTBone, I never play on the world map, and I hate those arguments about justifying civs because of their geographical position on the world map!

I like the difference in art though, which justifies most of the civs of minor world importance.

	14-09-2001 17:45									#42
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My opinion:
France, English and Germany are basically the same civilization.

	14-09-2001 17:45									#43
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My opinion:
France, English and Germany are basically the same civilization.

EDIT: oops, accidental double

	14-09-2001 19:58									#44
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There should be a norwegian civ. We're simply
different from germany or england - usa is
only a colony of england so remove them to
get a free slot for norway.
By the way... why do we need a world map?
A map of Europe would suffice.
Mmhh? You are chinese and want to play china?
Eearm... you can edit the... osmans to
represent china.
See!? Now we have all important civs in
Europe - we don't need a world map!

Arent

	14-09-2001 20:10									#45
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(stupid discussion, BTW )

	15-09-2001 01:08									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch There aren't enough European civs. Spain should be in, as should a civ representing Scandinavia. Given the Polish dominance of the 15th century they should be in aswell.

I agree, Polish being my second nat I would like to see a Polish civ. As you said they were looking good throughout the 15th century, that is until the rest of Eastern Europe trashed Her. For about 4 century's Poland was constantly Carved up between Russia, Prussia, Hungary, Sweden,later Austro-Hungary etc..
Copernicus(?) was Polish I think. Around 15th century(?)