12-09-2001 02:06									#61
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by KriFos Anyways, piracy isnt always a bad thing. Lets say "Gary" download a game, "Black & White", which there was no demo of, how could he find out if he liked it or not. Gary then likes it a lot, and tells 3 of his friends that hasnt heard of it / played it yet, let them play a bit, and make them like it too... So the next day, Gary and 2 of his friends go by the nearest game-retailer and buys 1 copy of B&W each, the last friend didnt like it that much, so he didnt want to buy a copy.

Wow. thats nice that "Gary" lives in the magical land of Warezargoodland. But in reality, if Gary felt no shame in going to DL the warez, he certainly would have no problem keeping them. Then Gary likes it a lot, so he tells 3 friends about it. Then 2 like it so much Gary burns the files onto a cd for his friends, and, what the hell, why not burn a copy for his friend who doesn't like it, just in case. This is a more realistic situation. Morals don't apply to gary and friends, they keep their money for their debilitating crack addiction. But if they'd bought B&W, keeping the developer alive, they would have stayed away from the drugs and kept the economy moving. If I ever see someone named "Gary" on the street, I will not hesitate to punch him in the face. That means you too, Mr. Coleman...

	12-09-2001 02:19									#62
	Tired of ads?

Isaac, I don't often agree with you, but I do on this. It would appear there are a number of people who are unaware of the copyright laws and how they pertain to the licensing of intellectual property. Theft is theft, whether material or intellectual.

	12-09-2001 02:25									#63
	Got spare money?

actually, I would be quite frightened by anyone who often agreed with me. the reason you don't is that i don't often care about making valid points. I argue for the sake of arguement, more to piss people off than to make a point. Except for a few threads, like this one.

	12-09-2001 04:42									#64
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think that it should be noted that scrupulous software developers have used piracy to their advantage. Windows has been relatively easy to pirate, and its on nearly every computer whether legal or not, but now that everyone has gotten "dependant" on Windows to do there computing they are being really stringent on XP. As if Win 95-NT-2000-Me were extended demos.

Some games have also been wise about avoiding piracy but have been still become a staple on every gamers computers. Half-Life is a prime example. The WON authentication system makes pirating very dificult, and the low price as well as the age (and hence reliability) and compatibility make Half-Life a cash cow. If people could pirate Half-Life it would have made 1/10th of the money.

IMHO Piracy is wholly dependant on how easy it is to pirate a given piece of software and to maintain the pirated copy w/patches etc, and how many features you can actually get out of the pirated copy. Companys have ingenious ways to avoid piracy and I wish theyd use them more often.

	12-09-2001 05:48									#65
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Warez = Theft

True

I download warez.

The truth is that I rarely buy games. But I rarely bought games before I had access to warez. The fact that I can download a perfect copy of a game doesn't really effect my purchases.

And the vast majority of games I download rarely stay on my puter for more than a couple days.

But its still stealing.

	12-09-2001 05:53									#66
	Got spare money?

Computer Games that don't do what they promise = False advertising.

Ever buy a tv that didn't work when you brought it home? I have. I took the damn thing back to the store.

Or how about did you ever get a pair of shoes from your mother that you just hated. Sure, tehy look great, nice and shiny, smooth and clean. but they make your feet hurt. Whatdya do? Ya take them back.

In the modern video game industry this is not an option. Most companies expect you to first BUY their product, then decide whether you LIKE. And no takign it back if you don't.

The advantage of warez is that you can try a product before you buy it. Its not stealing the car, its taking it for a test drive.

Stealing the car is if you don't pay the dealer for the damn thing when you decide to keep it.

Man o man, I wish I'd taken black and white for a test drive before i bought the damn thing.

	12-09-2001 06:39									#67
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras If people could pirate Half-Life

They have. I've seen burned CDs of Half-Life that work perfectly. I don't know how it's done, but I've seen them floating around.

Making excuses doesn't make stealing right.

And it doesn't help Firaxis make any more money for present and future games.

So, you don't want Civ IV, do you?

quote: Stealing the car is if you don't pay the dealer for the damn thing when you decide to keep it.

So, you go in the middle of the night, break in to a dealership's car and "test drive" it -- even if you returned it, you'd have a very difficult time explaining that to a court.

	12-09-2001 06:47									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Good point. What if you borrow the car from a friend then?

warez has to come from somewhere.

	12-09-2001 06:57									#69
	Tired of ads?

The better question is: Why do car dealerships allow test drives in the first place?

	12-09-2001 11:12									#70
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Rhysie Because if they want to play games (They must want to play them or they wouldn't bother stealing them) then they would buy them if they did not have the choice of theft. Perhaps they wouldn't buy as many as they steal, but they would buy some. And if you are now going to say 'What if they can't afford games?' - If they can't afford to buy one or two games, then they can't afford to buy a computer which will run modern games.

You have put the horse in front of the cart. It's not because the warz sites created the demand. It's the demands that created the warz sites. Games are only one part of what they carry.

There are also many who see piracy as a backslash against certain unscrupulous software publishers.

It's not just "theft." This is a complicated issue with no clear-cut answers.

	12-09-2001 11:20									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Edit: I forgot, there is an amazing system here in Germany. Anyone can pirate games without downloading them because they can be rented from video stores. Anyone who wants to pirate a game just rents it for a night (about $1), rips it onto a CD, photocopies the manual, and downloads one of the readily available CD cracks (which I use for my ligit games too since I can't be bothered with changing CDs). I don't understand how the games companies make any money in Germany....

Because unlike what the BSA wants you to believe (unfortunately some idiots do believe in what they say, or at least parrot them on this board), most people are basically honest and fair. If people have tried a game and like it, it is a lot more often than not that they will go out and buy it.

That's a very wise system the Germans have, letting the players test the games out before parting with their hard-earned cash.

I myself have been stung by rotten software before.

	12-09-2001 11:23									#72
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by down th' pub It would appear there are a number of people who are unaware of the copyright laws and how they pertain to the licensing of intellectual property.

Copyright laws seems to have play no part in such licensing, what you are talking about is more likely to be patents. This "license" nosense with regards to software is highly ridiculous, as copyright laws are supposed to protect the consumers as well. Where is this protection if a person cannot freely return a defective product?

	12-09-2001 11:24									#73
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: For example, if you live in a place where it is not on sale, you cannot buy it, so I have no objection to people downloading it. Of course, when it is released where you live you should buy a valid copy.

Where I live, I've never heard of a legal copy of any software product whatsoever.

Also, if buyers are thieves, then what are pirates? Criminals of war?

Absolutely every game or any other software product is pirated, and is possible to buy it for $2 per CD, right here where I live, no matter what it is - Pro Engineer or Barby goes somewhere.

Real thieves, IMHO, are people who supplies pirates with copies. Pirates aren't innocent too, but buyers are just acting as buyer usually do - if something cost $50, but they can buy it for $2, what will they do?
If Firaxis (or any other company) isn't protecting its property, it's not my fault. Somehow, I think that we (civ fans) are more considered about them, then they about us.

	12-09-2001 12:48									#74
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You have put the horse in front of the cart. It's not because the warz sites created the demand. It's the demands that created the warz sites. Games are only one part of what they carry. There are also many who see piracy as a backslash against certain unscrupulous software publishers. It's not just "theft." This is a complicated issue with no clear-cut answers.

That's rubbish. If there's a demand for killers, should we all fullfil that demand? The demand and the warezsites will remain a "chicken and the egg" kind of discussion though.

However, It's still a fact that people appearantly don't want to pay for something someone else worked hard for to create it.

Very much home pc's have MS-Word as Wordprocessor installed, whereas I'm sure most of the times MS-Works would do a fine job. And not to forget the free Office suites available by now.
People want the newest and the best for nothing. They say they have the right to copy it for they once bought a version of the program.

But if a newer model of a car comes out, one can't go to the dealer with the messsage "years ago I bougth this car, so you must give me the new one for free!"

	12-09-2001 13:12									#75
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The better question is: Why do car dealerships allow test drives in the first place?

	12-09-2001 13:48									#76
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by yin26 The better question is: Why do car dealerships allow test drives in the first place?

but can you test drive a ferrari?

	12-09-2001 15:49									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This really isn't difficult, folks. When Civ III comes out, read the box. If it says that it includes multiplayer, then Firaxis is obligated to have MP in it. If it doesn't have MP, and assuming that's what you want, then don't buy it. If you preordered it, obtain a FULL refund (i.e. all the costs associated with shipping). Although I believe Firaxis should have taken more care in their statements, this does not justify pirating their software. Read the box and then make a decision to buy or not to buy.

I've simply been stunned by some of the comments in these forums of late. In this thread, we have the justification of theft. In that "Nationalism vs. Fundalism" thread we had people blaming America for pushing its culture (the buyers of American products, apparently, are incable of disbelieving an advertisement ). Some of the "ethnic culture" threads earlier last month had people praising their own culture and their "historical significance" . . . and then bashing other cultures and their "insignificance". Everyone is so worried about others following a moral code that they fail to look at themselves.

	12-09-2001 16:13									#78
	Put an end to popups!

OK, here is the deal for me. If there is a considerable delay between the US release of civ3 and the UK release of civ3, more than a few days, then I will download the game until I purchase the game, when I will purchase it.

However I will not be willing to purchase a multiplayer version of the game per se. I am not going to spend good money for something that should have been added on in the first place. I am willing to invest in future Firaxis products, but I am not willing to be taken for a ride. However if they decide to bundle it with an expansion pack, fair enough. However in the timespan between the initial release and the MP becoming available, I doubt they would try and release two versions of the game and would allow you to download it. It would be a massive insult to do otherwise.

But briefly, I will buy the game, when available, but I will be playing civ3 from the start like the US will be doing. It may be piracy, but nor do I think it is fair to shaft another people just because of where they live!

	12-09-2001 16:34									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso i checked on amazon, its about 14 USD shipping for australia.

whixh is $28 Aus so makes it hlaf the cost of the game !!!

quote: . i am not sure how much less it would cost in private arrangement.

about $6 US or $12 aus ...

	12-09-2001 16:46									#80
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Someone meantioned before that by buying the game, you are then supporting the developers and encouraging more of the same... "You want a Civ IV dont you??"

Yes (and ive pre-ordered the LE)

But by that same token, through buying Black and White before trying it (which would have been illegal), i have supported that developer, encouraging them to put out more similar quality game - not what i want

	12-09-2001 17:18									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: but can you test drive a ferrari?

I can in America. But you need to 'prove' you are worthy...not quite sure what that entails. So to get the demo, I'd gladly show my bank account.

	12-09-2001 17:44									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by yin26 So to get the demo, I'd gladly show my bank account.

not that simple. you might have to prove that you didnt buy any ctp games

	12-09-2001 19:03									#83
	Support Apolyton

Hey, I think I CAN prove that! CtP 1 was a gift and CtP 2 was previewed off a friend! Does that count?

	13-09-2001 03:07									#84
	Inflate your Upload Space

I agree that software developers should be making demo versions of their games or some other way to try before you buy.

Not having a demo still doesn't make pirating somehow right. There's other ways to find out about a game -- look at reviews, ask somebody who played it, look at screenshots and feature lists, etc etc.

I disagree with warez and similar sites - I seriously doubt that the majority of people who get games from them end up buying the games, even if they liked it -- why buy it, when you can get it for free? It ought to be more controlled than that.

	13-09-2001 08:47									#85
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Is pirateing games all right? No its not. its stealing.

Is speeding allright? No its ilegal and dangerous.

So um. Hmm. Who is going to cast the first stone here?

I don't like pirating software. But most of the software I pirate, I wouldn't have bought anyway. And the software I do LIKE I tend to buy.

And as to listening to reviews, hah. Who can trust them? Anyone remember the force commander debacle? That game was previewed as the best thing since sliced bread. I almost preordered it.

Admittably, they told the truth when it was reviewed, but many a site lost all my respect when that happened.

And I buy games even when I already have them to support developers who put out quality products. Even when I have perfect cd image rips. And if I don't like them, they don't stay on my hard drive very long.

Pirateing is not legal, and its not nice. But if it is actually helping me to buy games, is it wise, or unwise?

	13-09-2001 10:26									#86
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by tuckson That's rubbish. If there's a demand for killers, should we all fullfil that demand?

Now that's real rubbish.

quote: Originally posted by tuckson The demand and the warezsites will remain a "chicken and the egg" kind of discussion though.

No it's not. If nobody wants warez they don't have long to live.

quote: Originally posted by tuckson However, It's still a fact that people appearantly don't want to pay for something someone else worked hard for to create it.

It's also a fact that some publishers produce beta quality software to force down customers' throats.

quote: Originally posted by tuckson Very much home pc's have MS-Word as Wordprocessor installed, whereas I'm sure most of the times MS-Works would do a fine job. And not to forget the free Office suites available by now.

When you buy a new brandname computer you are forced to pay for yet another copy of Windoze, regardless whether you need it or not.

quote: Originally posted by tuckson People want the newest and the best for nothing. They say they have the right to copy it for they once bought a version of the program.

Owners of some programs found out that they got screwed because they can't upgrade. They must pay in full.

quote: Originally posted by tuckson But if a newer model of a car comes out, one can't go to the dealer with the messsage "years ago I bougth this car, so you must give me the new one for free!"

If cars work as well as software there would be riots in the streets already.

	14-09-2001 20:07									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Ah, funny how this discussion starts in every game forum!

Anyway. I want to urge the warez haters to stop thinking in a black and white scheme. Some actions may still be legitimate, even they are against the law.

First off: I'm 100% sure that i'll buy Civ III as soon as i can here in europe. I played all Civ titles for years and i'm currently playing CTP2 (Yes! It's actually worth playing!!!) and i'm having a great time.

Secondly: I'm probably going to download Civ III as soon as possible (maybe even before the official release date) because i don't see why i should wait up to a month longer than many other players (this has nothing to do with logistics btw).

Question: Am I a thief?

As for other games:

Trying something before you buy it is my right and if no game demo is available, i can only test it by downloading it. You can't trust reviews (Those 50$ i spent for Black and White still hurt) and you can't trust demos because they often limit the most important aspect of a game, long term playability, or simply don't exist.

I also know that many warez users just download one game after the other and never buy one.

And i don't like the way some companies simply calculate: 'estimated number of pirated copies * list price = damage done to our company'.

And to make things clear: Warez versions aren't hard to find, downloading them doesn't take THAT long and they are often easier to install than full versions.

The real cons are: Missing movies/music (not so important if you want to test, whether you like the game or not), patching is more difficult, no game manuals, tech trees and (VERY important for me) no box to add to my big collection of games.

Greetings,

Rince

	15-09-2001 04:19									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: but can you test drive a ferrari?

yes, you can. they just do an on spot credit check to verify your credentials, or you can give them collateral (like the keys to the Jag you drove to the dealer). it's not like you drive the car without a dealer with you, anyway. (well, sometimes not, if you are THAT wealthy).
but, yes, you can test drive a ferrari.

	15-09-2001 05:12									#89
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras Windows has been relatively easy to pirate, and its on nearly every computer whether legal or not, but now that everyone has gotten "dependant" on Windows to do there computing they are being really stringent on XP. As if Win 95-NT-2000-Me were extended demos.

In case you're wondering, I'm running a cracked final version of Windows XP Corporate Edition right now. All of Microsoft's efforts are to no avail.

While I will probably download CivIII (mainly because it'll be available on warez sites weeks before it is in stores), I will buy the Limited Edition. If no one buys games, developers will cease making them.

	18-09-2001 21:18									#90
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Nemo quote: but can you test drive a ferrari? yes, you can. they just do an on spot credit check to verify your credentials, or you can give them collateral (like the keys to the Jag you drove to the dealer). it's not like you drive the car without a dealer with you, anyway. (well, sometimes not, if you are THAT wealthy). but, yes, you can test drive a ferrari.

Going further off topic...

Back in high school a friend of mine got a great deal on a used DeLorean (you know, "Back to the Future", stainless steel, gull-wing doors, ...). It had a terrible engine and was constantly leaking oil, but boy did it look cool! (Being only a couple inches of the ground it also handled well - 'though it did get stuck on a lot of subdivision speed bumps.)

When he drove it into a dealership they generally let him test drive any car he wanted.