25-09-2001 02:36									#61
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Is everyone asleep today or something? I've not had a single PBEM turn all day....

Hope everything's OK - you usually have them out in a flash

	26-09-2001 10:10									#62
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Hiya Mark, yeah everything is fine except that I can't access either hotmail or my usa mail - hotmail just won't load at all, usa gives me a "site under maintenance" message ...

So I gave up in despair because all my gaming addresses are in those 2 address books & it's such a pain to have to make a new one from the game threads ... But this morning the situation is still the same. So I've got a new email account which seems to let me in: misotu_gaming@yahoo.co.uk.

	26-09-2001 11:08									#63
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Hmm Looks like my son has been using this computer ...

Anyway, here's the next turn. Sorry about the delay Mark and congrats on the 2 techs/turn ...

Last edited by Misotu on 26-09-2001 at 19:15

	26-09-2001 16:45									#64
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Those damn cookies, eh Drone?

Oh well, we'll have this finished by tonight - looks like you're going to beat the DT record by one year by transcending in 2205 (I think, anyway), and I'd say you've probably beaten me by 10 years or so.

Last edited by mark13 on 27-09-2001 at 14:03

	26-09-2001 18:15									#65
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Yeah - I never bother to look at who I am, I have it set so that it just auto-recognises me ...

Ah well. Back to you. I really did get bad luck on the beeline, looking at the game. I've researched every single tech now, and am onto Transcendent Thoughts. Wouldn't usually get to that point, so lost a year or two there. Still ... a new record hopefully, unless I've done something very silly ... (always a possibility )

Last edited by Misotu on 27-09-2001 at 20:25

	27-09-2001 14:03									#66
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Ah well. It seems those loyal drones at Gagarin Memorial wantto join in the transcendence party - I guess that's what happens when you do nothing but hit turn complete for 3 years

Final MY attached

Attachment: dt8-mis-2205.zip
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	27-09-2001 18:23									#67
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Yup, transcendence in 2205, AC Score 2335.

The Translator was the killer. You going after the Vats was bad news for me since my strategy was originally Vats/domes/sats for the mid-late game. But the good news was that it meant you were following a completely different beeline, so I built a couple of probe foils and began stealing tech with a will Pretty much as soon as I built the Hunter.

Your transport very conveniently wandered into my waters at that time, enabling me to kill it and declare vendetta just before my probes reached your bases. So of course I didn't have to declare my actions and warn you about what I was doing

I only managed to steal 4 in total, but the second tech I stole was that for nanohospitals and the Universal Translator. Couldn't believe my eyes. I'd already given up on getting that SP - you were just so far ahead along the beeline. I believe I actually stole it as soon as you discovered it - enabling me to build the SP straight away and steal it out from under you. Literally

Plus of course it meant that I could get nanohospitals up in my two science cities several years earlier than would otherwise have been true. So it was a hell of a piece of luck ... Did you realise I was stealing tech? Did you ever catch sight of my probe foils?

Anyway, thanks very much for the game Mark, really enjoyed it. The early years, especially, were a lot of fun and it was a damned close-run thing on several of those key SPs ...

	27-09-2001 18:34									#68
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No, I didn't realise you were stealing tech - I hadn't actually realised we were allowed to steal tech. Oh well, that's what happens when you skim the rules before the game starts

Heh. Well, I decided to go down an unconventional route simply because I had next to no chance of grabbing the ToE. To be honest, I was surprised you took so long in getting there....

Anyway, the plan was to get the Vats, expand like mad shortly thereafter and hopefully I'd have twice the number of fully-functioning bases by game end. I also figured I'd get the Translator - I was extremely surprised when you got it, I must admit - I figured your tech rate was so good you'd zoomed down the beeline and were able to nip in there before me (I was slow to build it). Hadn't even crossed my mind that you might be stealing tech

Oh well. A great game, all said - and what better way to finish it off than a new transcendence record at the end of it. Congrats Mis - you deserve it

	27-09-2001 19:26									#69
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Thanks for the congrats Mark. Always a pleasure playing the game with you.

Yeah, probe actions are permitted (they come under the "limited engagement" heading) - I remember Paul attempting to probe Tau in their game. In our game, Paul and I agreed no probes just to dispense with that angle before we both wasted a lot of resource on it.

In fact I even built a single ODP - I think I might consider a single planet buster allowable too under "limited" military action, but that would be for Red to say. I just built it in case

The ToE was slow in coming - and that's the part of the strategy I'm not sure about. I was very frustrated in my previous DT game by the length of time it took me to get from 1 to 2 techs/turn when I built the SuperC and the ToE in a single base. I wasted thousands of labs in that game. This time, I resolved that if I got both I would build them in separate bases in the hope that this would speed things up.

I'm really not sure that it did. Perhaps in SMAX with a larger tech tree it would be worthwhile. But not, I think, in SMAC having tried it. So I didn't rush to get the ToE, I did a couple of other things first which I thought would be more beneficial given the set-up I was using. Probably a mistake - should just have chucked the ToE in my HQ and got on with it ...

	27-09-2001 20:21									#70
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Well, that's certainly what I'd have done. If you're really into the micromanagement, of course, you could manufacture it so that your SSC is enough just to produce 1 tech/turn. Don't know - anyway, putting them in seperate cities seems to me a bit of a waste. But hey - what do I know?

And a PB in a DT game?

Well, I would have been rather peeved had one been tossed at me, put it that way.

	27-09-2001 21:19									#71
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I am really into micro-management you daft bugger

So the thing is this ... if you get your SSC producing exactly enough for one tech per turn, then the rest of your bases have to produce sufficient labs for at least one more tech. Otherwise, all their labs are wasted, effectively, when the next turn comes around. Ie:

Tech cost (say) 1000 and then 1010
SSC produces 1000
Rest of empire produces 900

Result: 1 breakthrough, 900 carried forward.

Next turn:

Tech cost (say) 1010
SSC produces 1000
900 carried forward, 890 labs wasted from SSC.

And this is the problem. So effectively you have to gear it so that your whole empire (not the SSC) produces just enough labs for one tech or that the SSC produces 1 tech and the rest of empire produces 1 tech. And it seemed to me that it'd be easier to do this by building the two SPs in separate bases. With my HQ being the major SSC, and with the ToE in a secondary city that would really boost Rest of Empire Lab Production. Cause it's really easy to get to one tech/turn - it's getting to two or more that's hard.

Now of course in this game with this size map etc etc it didn't work well at all. But the theory was sound, see?

Ish.

	27-09-2001 21:22									#72
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PS Well yeah, I know. PBs. Probably not in the spirit really ....

But who can say? When one is dealing with an Unscrupulous Wee Mark wot thinks it's quite ok to nick landmarks and found a base on someone else's continent despite the Keep Out and Trespassers Will Be Executed signs .... well. Hard to say wot might happen ...

I just thought it'd stop you trying to introduce even more "fun" and "interest" in the last few turns

	27-09-2001 21:23									#73
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Yes indeedy....hmmm. Suppose you'd have to tweak it each turn - though tech doesn't come that cheap until later on

	27-09-2001 22:48									#74
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Congratulations, Misotu. Very well done, although if I see what you write here you could have transcended before 2200 if things had gone better.

	27-09-2001 23:25									#75
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Well, as Mis was at a comfortable 2 techs/turn at the end, I don't think 2200 was quite within the realms of possibility. Might have been possible to shave a turn or two off, but I doubt 5 years is quite feasible could be wrong though....

BTW, Paul, do you fancy a game at some point? Just thought it might be fitting, as we both lost to Mis - call it "DT11: Battle of the Defeated" or something

I know you've already played two DT games, and so might be getting tired of the formula by now but still - if you'd like to play, I'd be more than willing.

	28-09-2001 00:38									#76
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...and if Mis is in the mood for more sacrificial lambs, I could offer myself...

	28-09-2001 01:38									#77
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....a DT tourney?

	28-09-2001 06:36									#78
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Actually, I have already played 3 DT games. But I like the concept and would certainly like to play more. So I'm ready if you're ready.

	28-09-2001 11:17									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Tau Ceti ...and if Mis is in the mood for more sacrificial lambs, I could offer myself...

Heh, that's a good one. "Sacrificial lamb" indeed Do they have the expression "wolf in sheep's clothing" over in Norway Tau?

Okey dokey, you're on. I quite like these DT games, I must admit. And I have thought of a new strategy to try

I'll email Red and ask him if he would be willing to set up a game for us when he has a moment ...

Paul: I think Mark's right, 5 years would be a bit optimistic. But it's hard to say - I really did not push the tech anything like hard enough for quite a few of the middle years because I was so worried about Mark's pop. But it would be possible for someone to make it before 2200, I'm pretty convinced of that now ...

	28-09-2001 22:22									#80
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Sacrificial lambs? Bah! She only beat me by....10 years or so

Well, OK, so it wasn't exactly close. Still, I was but one turn away from denying her the Supercollider...



Anyhoo, have also mailed Red asking for both games. My only request is to be the white faction this time - I'm sick and tired of having to squint at the deep blue writing on the screen every time I open my turn

	06-10-2001 22:10									#81
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Have you already heard from Aredhran? If he doesn't have time, we could always use one of the old DT games. I still have the first turn of DT4, so if Tau Ceti still has the password we could start with that save.

I could send the first turn and password to Misotu for her game with Tau and Tau could send his password to Mark for his game with me.

	07-10-2001 00:18									#82
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Heard nothing from Red H, unfortunately - I know he's busy right now. So if you could exchange first turns and passwords, that'd be great.

	07-10-2001 01:33									#83
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If Tau Ceti still has his password from DT4, we can start the games. If he posts that he still has it, I'll start the game.

	07-10-2001 15:30									#84
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Tau is away this weekend, I think he's back sometime today. Might be worth emailing him Paul, he'll have quite a backlog of stuff to get through. Sounds like a good solution though.

	07-10-2001 19:17									#85
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I already sent him an email. I hope he still has the password; that would save us some time.