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Ironwood
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Fresno, CA
Oct 2001
time: 21:15
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Thanks. I've read the first page; don't have time to read it now, but it's very interesting. Much of it is things we certainly weren't taught in grade school. 
At any rate, I'll have to look further into this, at least to find a second source. I knew the Aztecs ruled a tribute empire, I knew the Incas had a mountain agricultural style empire (I think), I knew the Mayas had an advanced civilization, and I once read about a Cherokee that developed a system of writing that, while drawing it's idea from the Europeans, was considerably more than just another adaptation of the Roman alphabat (indeed, was independent of it). I knew the Iroqois had a pretty strong confederation, but I knew little of their relations with the American colonies, and nothing about their preference for a union of the colonies.
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DarkCloud
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of Lists
Jul 2000
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
Boris, thanks for the apology, I really needed that. Sometimes it seems like we are surrounded by Barbarians and for a moment there I feared they were dragging you down, too. You are a good debater and while we may not think alike, I very much appreciate your input. 
Despite Toynbee I still don't agree about Egypt. Toynbee seems to use specific criteria and while from there on his analysis looks decent enough, different criteria about what constitutes a civilization may lead to different conclusions. But I would like to hear other people's opinions, so I am challenging you to open a new thread called "Do the Egyptians belong in the top 16?". After all, this thread is about the Iroquois  .
About Roberts, I have no info on his research. For all I know, he may have been the greatest history researcher of all times. I still take his conclusions at face value.
With regard to irrigation, my guess is that it was invented (and lost) many times in the prehistoric age. I did not (intend to) claim, that the Egyptians were the first to discover it, just that they discovered it independently and thereby helped advance human skills in agriculture. If some inland Amazone tribe would invent it independently tomorrow, I would still put it on their record, and it would still be there if they would die out without ever making contact. From the civilizations included in the game, however, it seems to me that the Egyptians were first (3800 BC sounds good enough), but that may be open to interpretation: again, we don't all share the same definition of what constitutes a civilization or specifically when it starts (and ends).
I'm not sure what you are trying to say about my Iroquois sources. Are you claiming that the text of their constitution was fabricated? Is the description of their territory incorrect, or of their way of life? Did they not trade extensively with the Dutch and the French? Is their part in the Beaver, Canadian, and American independence wars a myth? 
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The Iroquois, as a nation were extinct by the time Canada won its 'independence'
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06-10-2001 23:24
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