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Waku
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Cádiz, Spain
Nov 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
but what did they give human civilization? |
Spaniards taught the world how to cross the ocean, unfortunatelly Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves...
Last edited by Waku on 02-10-2001 at 23:15
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Jay Bee
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Valladolid, CA
Jan 1970
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah |
Edited out. It's not worth wasting my time with this.
Last edited by Jay Bee on 03-10-2001 at 03:26
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Steve Clark
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Colorado Springs, CO
Oct 1999
time: 22:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Clark
Why is this even an issue? Just wait a little while and you'll probably see 100+ civs available to put into the 16 slots. Makes everything discussed here completely moot, imo.
For example, one of my very favorite Civ2 game I played included the Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrians, Minoans, Babylonians, Persians (and someone else), plus the barbarians disguised as Libyan raiders. You understand what I'm getting at?
Now in Civ3, whether these new ones include those fancy 3D leaders is irrelevant, imo. As far as civ attributes, those should not be in the regular game, only in scenarios. |
It occurred to me that I don't know the answer to the degree of customization for the leaders. Do we know if we will be able to generate the 3D heads of any leader or person and place them into one of the custom civs? I still say that it is not important but most of the time, you'll be staring at the game map and interacting with your units and cities.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Waku
Spaniards taught the world how to cross the ocean, unfortunatelly Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves... |
Many tribes crossed the oceans long before the Spanish did, and the fact that the Spanish beat the Portuguese & others to the Americas in that particular timeframe was only due to the fact that Spain was not self-supportive and hence was in just a little more hurry to discover new routes to get rich. But it could as well have been any of their rivals, they all had the skill and the incentive.
The interesting part is what the European tribes did in the (re-)discovered lands,
because that was very different for each of them. While the Spanish initially went to plunder, the others could afford to take a longer-term view: the Dutch (later followed by Swedes and Danes), with their smaller population, concentrated more on trade with the natives, while the British favoured government (the French and Portuguese had a more even mix of politics).
The Portuguese started the slave traffic over the Atlantic Ocean (slave trade as such was already done by African tribes among themselves), but 90% of it was actually done by the British as said before in identical threads.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Waku
Ribanita please read again: spaniards tought the world how to cross the ocean, do not read what it's not written. |
Waku Waku, how small is your world? Did you forget the Vikings, even? Not to mention the Chinese, Phoenicians, Ethiopians, did we not learn from them? Even the Polynesians were able to cross the oceans. There was nothing essential to be taught by the Spanish, all the seafaring tribes already possessed the 'skill'.
Why can you not be happy by proudly saying that the Spanish rediscovered the Americas, ahead of their rivals, instead of adding and adding to it until it turns into a blatant nothing (and making it so easy to counter)? 
quote:
You're no rebating what I've said. Again: Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves. |
So they did, it is a black page in Dutch history.  But it was only a small part of Dutch trade, while it was a big part of British trade and the British and Spanish were the main buyers. So there is no reason to single out the Dutch, except that they were relatively harsh towards the slaves they transported.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by orange
It was quite a feat at the time, but remember UR...he didn't cross oceans, he followed coastline |
quote:
{edit: link starts here}{The first Treasure Fleet} (of Cheng Ho in 1405-1407 - Rib) consisted of 62 ships; four were huge wood boats, some of the largest ever built in history. They were approximately 400 feet (122 meters) long and 160 feet (50 meters) wide. The four were the flagships of the fleet of 62 ships assembled at Nanjing along the Yangtze (Chang) River. Included in the fleet were 339-foot (103-meter) long horse ships that carried nothing but horses, water ships that carried fresh water for the crew, troop transports, supply ships, and war ships for offensive and defensive needs. The ships were filled with thousands of tons of Chinese goods to trade with others during the voyage. In the fall of 1405 the fleet was ready to embark with 27,800 men. |
Now, that is what I call an exploration 
quote:
The fleet utilized the compass, invented in China in the 11th century, for navigation. Graduated sticks of incense were burned to measure time. One day was equal to 10 "watches" of 2.4 hours each. Chinese navigators determine latitude through monitoring the North Star (Polaris) in the Northern Hemisphere or the Southern Cross in the Southern Hemisphere. The ships of the Treasure Fleet communicated with one another through the use of flags, lanterns, bells, carrier pigeons, gongs, and banners. |
quote:
The destination of the first voyage of the Treasure Fleet was Calicut, known as a major trading center on the southwestern coast of India. India was initially "discovered" by Chinese overland explorer Hsuan-Tsang in the seventh century. The fleet stopped in Vietnam, and Malacca, and then headed west ACROSS THE INDIAN OCEAN (my caps - Rib) to Sri Lanka and Calicut and Cochin (cities on the southwest coast of India). |
quote:
... It's likely that a detachment of one of Cheng Ho's fleets sailed to northern Australia during one of the seven voyages based upon the Chinese artifacts found as well as the oral history of the Aborigine. |
Last edited by Ribannah on 04-10-2001 at 20:33
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02-10-2001 23:08
I see your point but I think you also see mine.
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