04-10-2001 02:46									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yes, they keep mentioning an editor and editing tools all over the place. It will be more than just modifying the rules.txt file, there will be many other elements that can edited. Don't know the mechanics yet.

	04-10-2001 02:51									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Nemo Thanks for the update Dan thats what i USED to think...untill i played CTP

Yeah, thanks for letting me know Dan

*puts Civ3 money back into wallet for immediate spending*

huh? Think how much CtP sucked without SLIC.

	04-10-2001 03:00									#33
	Got spare money?

What I'm thinking is that the editor will essentially be the equivalant of cheat mode, map editor, and game files access (rules, graphics, etc.), rolled into one package.

It looks like to me that, just as civ1 came single player, civ multiplayer came out, then civ2 didn't have multiplayer, in civ3, first the single player will come out, and later things like scripting scenario language, multiplayer, etc. will be added.

Sounds good to me.

	04-10-2001 03:09									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat huh? Think how much CtP sucked without SLIC.

exactly!

you said:
No game needs a scripting language,
I said:
that's what i USED to think...until i played CTP

translated:
CTP is the only game that needed a script editor becuase it sucked so bad out of the box.

regarding civ 3:
i dont think this will be the case by any means.

	04-10-2001 16:35									#35
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Dan, thanks a ton for posting that. For a long time I was in doubt if/when to buy Civ3 but now I know for certain that I won't buy it.

I mean, I'm sure it will be a nice game to play the first few times but after that I'll have seen so many things I'd like to change (I have this with all games these days, no matter how good they are - and with the knowledge I currently have, Civ3 doesn't even look all that good) which simply aren't changable it will frustrate the hell out of me and I'll have to give up playing anyway. I'm a hardcore modder: If I can't change a game, it ain't any good!

Yeah sure, you can probably mod this game just as easily and extensively as Civ2 or even better but it won't be leaps better without a decent scripting language or anything resembling it. I'm sure adding new units or civs will be easier than ever but without a scripting language, would it FE be possible to add a CtP-like PW system to Civ3? With CtP's SLIC it's possible to bring back the old Settler/Worker/Engineer system (noone ever did it but as experienced SLICer I think it's quite possible) but I now have serious doubts about doing the reverse in Civ3... Civ2's customizability was a total joke compared to CtP's (considering the time it was made it was in it was very good, but we live in a different time now), I can't imagine Civ3 will be that much better.

	04-10-2001 19:24									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Could someone ask the civ team (or whomever) whether the editor includes the ability to control events, like in Civ2?

Again, I don't think we have to worry (at least those of us that loves playing scenarios more than the main game) because they will includes scenarios in the release and have said that we can create scenarios. How do you think we are able to do that?

	04-10-2001 22:24									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Maybe this was a misunderstanding, but it definitely sounded like 'No Event Editor'. Because how would You want to do that without any kind of scripting/macros?

	04-10-2001 22:32									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

If Civ 3 is released as a "perfect" game then the lack of a detailed scripting language will be irrelevant because all anyone will need are scenario triggers. Unfortunately it means that the product will never be able to exceed the original expectations of the programming team. 3rd parties will be unable to release unofficial mods to close any AI loopholes, adjust game rules that prove disappointing or design some truly individual scenarios which play significantly differently.

	05-10-2001 00:12									#39
	Put an end to popups!

Steve,
For those people who do plan to buy the game I hope it's not true but perhaps the only way to make scenarios is in the ala the Civ2 Rome and WW2 scenarios: new maps, units, wonders, civs, etc but no events or anything of the like? They'll probably have some kind of event system though, ala Rules.txt, but it can't be much more sophisticated than that...

Grumbold,
No game is ever perfect, not even if it's extremely well balanced and totally bug-free. There's always improvements to make, new features to add (introducing CtP's PW system could be one example, natural disasters and other random events another (IIRC those aren't in yet) and there are hundreds of other things that one could think of). Granted, such things aren't not necessary for a fun game, but neither are scenarios and yet Civ2 had hundreds of those...

	05-10-2001 00:35									#40
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold If Civ 3 is released as a "perfect" game then the lack of a detailed scripting language will be irrelevant because all anyone will need are scenario triggers

But how do You know there are scenario triggers? I would be half-way satisfied to know there is at least a similar system like in FW/TOT in place . But this hasnīt been positively affirmed as yet.

	05-10-2001 01:09									#41
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Dan, thanks a ton for posting that. For a long time I was in doubt if/when to buy Civ3 but now I know for certain that I won't buy it.

I think this is a disrespectful remark. If you've decided to not buy the game- and I have a hunch that most non-believers will- then peace be with you. Start your own comany up and make a game that you like to play. I'll probably buy it too.



I gotsta give a huge thumbs up to Firaxis for taking a few archer arrows like the above while they mobilize their tanks for the assault.

Kudos anyway for voicing an oppinion so strongly. I know Firaxis listens and perhaps has a script language alternative in the works.

I myself am happy without one 'cause random maps are fine for me.

	05-10-2001 01:47									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by cassembler I think this is a disrespectful remark.

I don't see how that is disrespectful, I'm just telling the truth. I'm only expression my (honest) gratefulness to Dan for finally solving my dilemma. I'm not being sarcastic or anything (I apologize if it appeared that way), it has been troubling my mind for months...

And yes, if I'd have the time I would certainly develop my own civ game. Once I'm done with CtP2, I might actually do just that (or just join one of the already existing Alt Civ projects)...

	05-10-2001 01:55									#43
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hey sometimes the truth hurts, but it's still the truth. Sorry if it was taken as a sarcastic remark.
That being said, are you really not gonna buy Civ3 just because it has no scripting language, or are there other reasons?



BTW I already have a few days off right after Oct 31...

	05-10-2001 02:01									#44
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oh wait, you're new around here (or at least not a regular visitor)? I posted a whole bunch of reasons for disliking Civ3 numerous times in the past. One Firaxian once describes Civ3 as a 'conservative sequel' and that's exactly what it is and what I'm NOT waiting for. I want to see some real changes...

	05-10-2001 02:21									#45
	Support Apolyton

The only thing that sucks about not having a scripting language...

Is that I can't make mods to post on the internet!!!

	05-10-2001 02:30									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

EU is Civ2 with real changes, but that doesn't assume it's a better game.

As one who is planning on spending 90% of the time playing scenarios, this is a critical issue for me. The scenarios that came with MGE (FW) were lame because no one had figured out how to make clever use of the events, rules and batch files. If the exact same type of files are available for us within Civ3 (plus the usual scenario options), then I am confident that folks like Kull, Cpt Nemo, Harlan, BeBro and Stefan can figure out to make great scenarios, taking advantage of the great features like resources, diplomacy, culture and more ways of winning.

	05-10-2001 02:33									#47
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by java4me The only thing that sucks about not having a scripting language... Is that I can't make mods to post on the internet!!!

java, I don't call Civ2's events.txt file a scripting language. Superb Civ2 scenarios have been developed in the past year or two without a scripting language.

	05-10-2001 02:41									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark java, I don't call Civ2's events.txt file a scripting language. Superb Civ2 scenarios have been developed in the past year or two without a scripting language.

I never made mods for Civ2, but I did own CTP!!!

	05-10-2001 02:56									#49
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by java4me I never made mods for Civ2, but I did own CTP!!!

Sorry to hear that.

Seriously, I think some of the contention that we have here is that some folks have civ experience with only CtP. That's like joining an Advanced Pottery class when your only experience is with Play-Doh.

	05-10-2001 03:14									#50
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark Sorry to hear that. Seriously, I think some of the contention that we have here is that some folks have civ experience with only CtP. That's like joining an Advanced Pottery class when your only experience is with Play-Doh.

I played Civ1 and Civ2 for years!!!

I just never made mods for them!!!

I don't like being treated this way!!!

	05-10-2001 03:15									#51
	Got spare money?

Excuse me? Who's being disrespectful now? CtP is full-flegded Civilization, just as much as Civ2, ToT and SMAC are. It has the name, it has the same idea and philosophy behind it, it has all the key elements. The only thing it lacks, according to some people, is atmosphere and the one-more-turn feeling (it goes without saying that I, and many with me, disagree on this). It's absolutely proposterous to claim a game that doesn't have the name Sid Meier on it isn't Civ. If you must compare, it's like flying a Cessna compared to flying a Boeing (which one is the Cessna and which the Boeing doesn't matter): there are many differences, esp. in appearences, but it's still flying...

	05-10-2001 03:26									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

And one can make a vase with Play-Doh as well as with clay.

I really wasn't singling anyone out specifically, just a general observation that if you do not know what some of the great scenario designers have been able to do recently with Civ2, then you have very little basis for drawing a conclusion to what Civ3 can or can't do in making scenarios. How CtP does it is irrelevant for Civ3, imo. I do not know what the mechanics will be for Civ3, but with the high degree of customization and the appearance of scenarios, I am confident that many clever scenarios will be developed.

	05-10-2001 03:48									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ok, so it's labeled a "conservative sequel."
[I will not disagree with that statement- 99% of all sequels are]

The only one thing that I will buy this game for: improved AI. Everything else is, to me, icing on the cake. If the AI sucks, then the game will as well. It can't, however, be any worse than Civ2.

I'm not looking for challenge, I'm looking for opponents with integrity. Civ2 AI civs were just like the goomba troopers in Mario Bros... just there for the stompin'.

So, that being said, I think that that one improvement is worth my $50. I would understand someone not agreeing with that, but my question [honestly]: what other games are there? I know they exist because your oppinion is so strong.

(BTW, ever play Command HQ? Was there ever a sequel?)

quote: Oh wait, you're new around here (or at least not a regular visitor)?

Yes, I am, and I see that you are not.
I give all due respect, lad.

	05-10-2001 04:54									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune But how do You know there are scenario triggers? I would be half-way satisfied to know there is at least a similar system like in FW/TOT in place . But this hasnīt been positively affirmed as yet.

Firaxis announced that they would be providing better than ever support for the mod community. It was a long time ago but nothing since has toned down that ambition. Granted that they seem to be disregarding the amazing customisability of the CtP games completely (as with all other areas where CtP did manage to improve on the genre), it still implies more scenario potential than provided in any incarnation of Civ 2.

	05-10-2001 05:07									#55
	Tired of ads?

Steve,
Have you ever played modded CtP? I am aware of the developments in Civ2 scenario design (I don't play or mod anymore but I do follow the news) and some cool things are done with it but without knowing the power of a scripting language you can't say it's not important. I have at least some experience with modding both series and I study Computer Science and from those experiences I can assure you that without basic concepts like variables or functions you are extremely limited in what you can mod. Without having experience with CtP or real programming languages you probably don't have a clue about the things that are possible with even a simple scripting language that aren't possible with the limited means for modding that Civ2 and even ToT provide. FE In CtP1 playing on flat maps was not possible but I wrote a simple piece of SLIC code that enabled this anyway, to my knowledge (relying on old memories here, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) something like that would have been impossible in Civ2. I could give dozens of other examples and explain in detail what makes it work in CtP that Civ2 simply doesn't have but I won't bore you with that. I'm sure some interesting things will be possible with Civ3 but it took people many years to figure the more interesting stuff out for Civ2 and Civ3 is an all new engine so you'll have to start from scratch again. More importantly, the limitations will still be way too frustrating for someone like me. For 'simple' (in CtP terms) scenarios Civ3 will no doubt be well equiped but for 'serious' (again in CtP terms) modding it's probably not ready without a scripting language.

cassembler,

quote: The only one thing that I will buy this game for: improved AI

In that case you shouldn't have waited for Civ3, you could have bought CtP and downloaded some mods years ago. The more advanced of those mods give even the most experienced Deity a tough challenge...

quote: It can't, however, be any worse than Civ2

From personal experience with other sequels, you'd be surprised... (no, I'm not saying Civ3's AI will suck, I'm saying don't take it for granted that newer is better)

Edit: since you're new here you may want to watch out for Yin26 He's slightly less radical in his criticism on Civ3 than me but he's legendary for eternally whining and whining and whining about it, while I only post about it when it happens to come up and I feel like complaining (not very often)...

	05-10-2001 06:13									#56
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Locutus, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I will write a more measured response tomorrow when I have more time. To answer one of your questions, I've been in the IT field for over 20 years which includes many application development projects and have taught myself about 5-6 programming languages during that time. But that doesn't get at your point about why CtP needed a scripting language.

	05-10-2001 06:27									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

CTP is not a good game. Not CTP1, and definately not CTP2. Modded? No, never tried it. Why? Because when a game is just THAT BAD, I have no more time to waste on it.

Unfortunately, yes, CTP is CIV also, even if in name only; which may have lost us potential CIV community members after their disappointment.

Great job Activision

	05-10-2001 06:42									#58
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba Great job Activision

do i sense some sort of sarcasm here?

	05-10-2001 06:52									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Steve,
Good plan, it's getting awfully late, at least in my timezone. However, from tomorrow onward I'll be out of town (and away from an Internet connection) for a couple of days, so don't be surprised if I don't reply to your reply anytime soon...

Anunikoba,
Actually, CtP gained the Civ community many more members than it lost (if any), something which you wouldn't know since I hardly ever see you in the CtP community so you don't who has a background there and who doesn't (I could easily name dozens of people who got into Civ because of CtP).

As far as the quality of CtP goes, you have your opinion and I have mine. I fully respect and can understand yours and I hope you do the same with mine (though seeing some of the posts you made today I have my doubts about that).

	05-10-2001 08:25									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Locutus! Steve! Here's two guys I genuinely like, going at it hammer and tongs. As someone who's spent a fair amount of time on the CTP2 and Civ2 boards, let me say that you guys are far more alike than you know!

Now the real question....and I can scarcely believe I'm even ASKING this......Firaxis Guys PLEASE respond.......

Will Civ3 have an events language at least as powerful as that in Civ2?

And if so, is it included in this release?

(The answer has to be "yes".....the alternative is beyond belief)