03-10-2001 02:18									#31
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quote: Originally posted by PGM It's up to the players to learn english if they want to play the game.

Bull$hit. They shouldn't have to learn a new language just to play a computer game.

	03-10-2001 02:25									#32
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quote: Originally posted by PGM English version . Translations are a waste of time and effort. It's up to the players to learn english if they want to play the game.

Once again, I refer to my example of console games. They are pretty much all made in Japan, and made with the Japanese language first. Should console games only be available in Japanese?

	03-10-2001 03:02									#33
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i know I won't buy the game if it's dutch only. as for manual i don't really care. maybe that should be localised.

it's abit like dubbing movies i feel. some like it, others hate it
(i do

	03-10-2001 03:41									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov How's this for Imperialist - I don't care because the game is originally in English and therefore I don't have to worry about it. *Proudly sticks head in the sand*

Way to go!!

Some people are IMO just trying to be too politically correct to support the localised version.

English language rules in Civ III!

	03-10-2001 03:43									#35
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 i know I won't buy the game if it's dutch only. as for manual i don't really care. maybe that should be localised. it's abit like dubbing movies i feel. some like it, others hate it (i do

Yep, I also don't care about the manual, but the game would better be in English.

	03-10-2001 04:51									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Roman Yep, I also don't care about the manual, but the game would better be in English.

You and I might prefer the game in english, but what about the people that don't speak it?

	03-10-2001 05:21									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th You and I might prefer the game in english, but what about the people that don't speak it?

As I said, I doubt there are many potential customers like that and moreover I don't care if they produce localised versions as long as they ship the English version to Germany too.

	03-10-2001 05:35									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Should console games only be available in Japanese?

No, but english is pretty much an universal language, now more than ever. Japanese isn't.

I learned english on my own, are people just too lazy to pick up a dictionary?

	03-10-2001 05:39									#39
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quote: Originally posted by PGM No, but english is pretty much an universal language, now more than ever. Japanese isn't.

Exactly my point.

	03-10-2001 07:48									#40
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quote: No, but english is pretty much an universal language, now more than ever.

Sorry to burst your bubble but although english may be the international language of choice, it is very FAR from being universally understood.

I dare you to post in english on a non-english, non-german board. (Your mileage may vary)

	03-10-2001 08:09									#41
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I ALWAYS use them products in their ORIGINAL VERSION:

- a U.S. video game in english only ( I've never played an import japanese anyway);
- an american or anglo-saxon movie in english;
- an animé DVD in japanese with english subtitles;
- a japanese movie ( Kurosawa ) in japanese with subtitles;
- a French movie in french;
- a U.S./anglo-saxon sci-fi novel in english;
- a french sci-fi novel in french.

Oh yes, dubbing the original ALWAYS destroy the atmosphere.

	03-10-2001 08:13									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Once again, I refer to my example of console games. They are pretty much all made in Japan, and made with the Japanese language first. Should console games only be available in Japanese?

It's about markets. The reason Japanese console companies do this is because there is a vast market in America to sell their products to. This market is also notoriously selfish and chauvinist when it comes to learning foreign tongues.

For American game companies, the vast majority of their market is either A) in the USA anyway or B) In a country where English is commonly spoken, even if not as a first language.

Therefore, it boils down to economics. If it makes economic sense to have the game localized, then fine. If the expense just isn't worth the trouble, then they won't do it.

I imagine, given Civ's broad appeal, they will release foreign-language versions. Having never played one, I am in the dark as to why people object to them.

Now, if you excuse me, I will go back into my Capitalist Imperialist Isolationist shell. That means I will take off in my SUV, which gets 1.5 miles to the gallon (which costs half as much here than over there thanks to the oil lobby), run my A/C at full-blast, leaving the windows open, listen to music loudly, burp in public, scratch and then throw litter upon the ground.

Ta.

	03-10-2001 08:18									#43
	Re: the original version, only and always Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Master Marcus Oh yes, dubbing the original ALWAYS destroy the atmosphere.

While I agree with this 99% of the time, can think of 2 exceptions:

1) The English dub of The City of Lost Children is excellent, I enjoyed it more than the subtitled version (you, being a French speaker, need not bother, I suppose).

2) The NEW dub of Akira is also excellent, far superior to the original dub, and preserves much of the atmosphere. Now the dialogue actually makes sense, fancy that.

But yes, most dubbing is horrible. Like the english dub of the 1950s French movie of Les Miserables. BLAAAAAARGH!

	03-10-2001 08:24									#44
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I bought Simcity 3000 here in Korea and when I put in the CD a message appeared asking if I wanted to install the English or Korean version. Thumbs up to Maxis. That's a great way for Koreans to improve their English if they are interested. I installed the English version but had to read the manual (well, bits of it when I was stumped) in Korean. The Korean version of Microsoft Office 2000 comes with a Language Pack that allows you to switch between English and Korean interfaces whenever you want. Even all the help files are in both languages. The dog is bilingual also. I'm not sure how much money and effort it costs to put in a feature like that but it might not be worth it for the number of non-English speakers that buy Civ3. Although, if the ratio of English to non-English speakers on this forum is representative of the people who will buy the game then it might very well be worth it to have the language option.

	03-10-2001 08:27									#45
	Local Version Remove this text

By the way, I voted in your poll as a bilingual person. The Korean version of Simcity is funny, just like the English version. The names of the advisors are puns and there is nothing lost. I think the translators did a great job. With effort, I'm sure Civ3 could be translated well.

	03-10-2001 08:33									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I suppose all console games should come in japanese now, too?

oh yeah! i love playing games when you dont have a clue whats going on

but seriously, dont other countries have a choice between local and non-local version?

	03-10-2001 08:50									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Takeshi although english may be the international language of choice, it is very FAR from being universally understood.

So is Civ.
And where are we going to draw the line? Why cover only a few languages? What about the chinese, there's billions of them, is the game coming out in chinese too? It's got to! I have an idea, what about the poor people who can't afford the game? Let's drop the price. And what about the little ones who can't understand the mechanics of the game? I suggest we make a Sesame Street civ3 instead. What about the blind? We can't let anyone out, let's make a braille version.
My point? It isn't called Perfect, it's called civ3. If you want to play, learn and play by the rules. If you can't, I'm sorry.
That's pretty much what drove me to learn english on my own.

quote: Originally posted by Takeshi I dare you to post in english on a non-english, non-german board.

Is this a joke? "I dare you"? I live in a "non-english, non-german country". I should know what I'm talking about.
Civ3 english language only. Grab a dictionary! Is it that hard? If it came out in chinese only, you bet I'd learn it.

	03-10-2001 09:56									#48
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quote: Why cover only a few languages? What about the chinese, there's billions of them, is the game coming out in chinese too? It's got to!

Sure, why not?

Seriously though, I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not against releasing Civ in english. If Firaxis decides to make it only english then fine. What I am against is depriving non-english speakers of Civ3 by forbidding XYZ company from making a french,spanish,whatever version. This is nothing but selfish and elitist behavior. I'm happy for you that you personally can surf through the english manual, but I wouldn't be too sure about the whole country.

And if Civ3 was chinese-only, you bet that 99% will want their own language version instead of learning chinese.

	03-10-2001 12:50									#49
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In my country English version of Civ3 will be shipped first, but then localized version will show up. I think that's fair.

Why to localize? To sell more in countries in which English is not an official language.

Some efforts to localize fails but some are really brilliant.
For example we have beautiful localization of Planescape Torment (better than original english version...). We have big amount of great litereature and movie translations.

But I can agree that most of translations are worse than original. They are done in a hurry, by untalented people. Dubbing is very hard to perform (why?).

I will play English version definitely!

	03-10-2001 13:09									#50
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quote: Originally posted by krzysiek In my country English version of Civ3 will be shipped first, but then localized version will show up. I think that's fair.

is that the case everywhere? if so, then why the need for the poll?

	03-10-2001 13:44									#51
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quote: Originally posted by krzysiek In my country English version of Civ3 will be shipped first, but then localized version will show up. I think that's fair. But I can agree that most of translations are worse than original. They are done in a hurry, by untalented people. Dubbing is very hard to perform (why?).

That's how it usually works in Korea, too (but see my earlier post about Simcity). I see a version that has the English game (with Korean manual) and a few months later I see the same game with 'complete Korean version' written on the box. My copy of Caesar III was 'complete Korean version' but the voices weren't dubbed. It had the English voice and a dialogue box with the translation. Good idea. I learned a lot of Korean that way.

	03-10-2001 13:46									#52
	Re: the original version, only and always Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Master Marcus Oh yes, dubbing the original ALWAYS destroy the atmosphere.

Silly. It always depends from the quality of dubbing/translation. We in Italy have a long tradition of excellent translation of books and films dubbing. Often good writers and actors added their ability to retain (or sometimes enhance) the atmosphere.

Today the problem is anyone in industry is looking for very cheap translation, made from inexperienced people (often simply student ) who don't know enough the original language nor the Italian to do a good job.

Games and Best sellers / Cheap book suffers the most, not mentioning technical manuals and instruction of appliance where the company chose to make a quick translation by someone who don't know the target language more than just enough to browse a dictionary and pick the first translation it get.

BUT if the translation is properly done, you don't lost the enjoyment, you simply add a large number of readers/players who don't understand original language (or not enough).

	03-10-2001 13:48									#53
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I believe not speaking English in the world of today is a major handicap. I'm sure some people will disagree, but TV, magazines, even going on holiday is hard if you speak no English.
The last generation has grown up with computers and now Internet. How big a percentage in Europe and N-America (major sales areas of this game) do not speak English?
Just get us the original, or if you must, give us a choice. Localised vrsions only are discriminating against people working abroad.

	03-10-2001 13:50									#54
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After a few years of Microsoft Office in english I finally installed a version in romanian. It takes sometimes a few seconds to know where to look for the right button

And the discussion with others Civ3 players would be harder if everyone had his language version.

	03-10-2001 17:09									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Earthling7 Just get us the original, or if you must, give us a choice. Localised vrsions only are discriminating against people working abroad.

Exactly!

	03-10-2001 17:21									#56
	Re: I SAY: Do not localize it Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Sell the US version everywhere. Or at LEAST sell the US version with the localized version. I REFUSE to buy the german version. I tell ya. Btw, there is a poll. Please only non-native english speakers enter.

Ata, can you add this option (English + Localized)?

It seems the best of both opportunity for some of us (I'm keeping my vote for this option just in case you can add it).

Thank you in advance

	03-10-2001 17:58									#57
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I guess the real question should be:

Why isn't the game launched everywhere at the same time?

The answer is Economics, not the translation time needed for localized versions.

I had to pay 88 Dollars for the L edition + Shipping and perhaps I will pay Custom Taxes.

In Portugal there isn't even a release date (as far as I know)

How fair is that?

Dvd's is the same crap. I buy DVD's from the states with films that aren't even in theatres here in Portugal...

	03-10-2001 17:59									#58
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"Commandos 2" is a Spanish or Catalonian game, but I am sure that if there is a big fan of this great game in the US he/she will like it translated no?
I prefer the original english version, but I know a lot of people who love CIV games that will have a very hard time playing in english. Another thing is that it does not lose so much if you do a good translation. I will vote to have the two versions in the same cd. For the "Imperialists" I will say that following the same policy the will lose the chance to read very good books not written originally in english, maybe they can argue that the only good literature is english or American.

	03-10-2001 18:02									#59
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I didnt vote, being an English-only speaker, but i felt like commenting. In many cases, dubbing destroys atmosphere. I once watched a Jackie Chan movie, and it was dubbed by Americans. It just looked stupid, with Asian people speaking with broad American accents... i ended up taking it back to the video store half-way thru - it was that bad. Most other ones ive watched, were spoken in their native language with the addition of English subtitles. This i much preferred.
Even movies dubbed well by people speaking with an Asian accent weren't as good as having them speak their own language.

	03-10-2001 18:15									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Anatolia I bought Simcity 3000 here in Korea and when I put in the CD a message appeared asking if I wanted to install the English or Korean version. Thumbs up to Maxis. That's a great way for Koreans to improve their English if they are interested. I installed the English version but had to read the manual (well, bits of it when I was stumped) in Korean. The Korean version of Microsoft Office 2000 comes with a Language Pack that allows you to switch between English and Korean interfaces whenever you want. Even all the help files are in both languages. The dog is bilingual also. I'm not sure how much money and effort it costs to put in a feature like that but it might not be worth it for the number of non-English speakers that buy Civ3. Although, if the ratio of English to non-English speakers on this forum is representative of the people who will buy the game then it might very well be worth it to have the language option.

I would like to nominate you for the best posting in this thread.

Strong localization (leaving the English version out) is not a good idea, that's for sure. But weak localization (the solution described by Anatolia) will be to everyone's (including Infogrames') benefit in many countries. If, for example, they invest some money in a good Dutch translation, I'm sure they will easily recover the costs. There are lots of people in the Netherlands and Flanders (including some very smart 14 or 15 yr olds) who are potential Civ buyers but don't speak English well enough to understand all of the manual and the Civilopedia. I think an English/Dutch version would at least triple the sales.

Oh, and English is not God's Own Language. Arrogance is ignorance.