09-10-2001 04:25									#61
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Agreed. Which makes it all the more remarkable how far they got from being mere bands of nomads a couple of centuries before.

	09-10-2001 04:29									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Like Roman just did, only far worse and with a lot of abuse. And most of all without substance.

Hey,
I was merely stating my opinion of the Iroquis and made no condescending remarks and in fact I did not even refer to anybody on the boards in any way. Now I can see that some people on these boards are giving you a hard time, but that does not mean you should blame me for that.

	09-10-2001 04:31									#63
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Ribannah, I respect your arguments, but a group of people without cities cannot possibly be considered a civilization IMO.

	09-10-2001 05:32									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Agreed. Which makes it all the more remarkable how far they got from being mere bands of nomads a couple of centuries before.

ROFLMAO!

So now they're "mere bands of nomads" while you've been saying all along that BEFORE European contact (prior to 1570) they had all that tech! Simply stunning! Hang up your troll cape, Ribannah, you just signed the death certificate for your argument.

Roman - I agree. You merely stated your opinion, and she acted like you took a shot at her and the Iroquois. Remarkable. Don't respect her arguments, she makes none.

	09-10-2001 05:35									#65
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Before you even attempt to backtrack...

quote: Before contact with the Europeans, I think they had the following: Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working, Masonry, Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics, Feudalism, Construction, Mysticism, Polytheism, Monarchy, Chivalry, Engineering, Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy, Navigation, The Republic, Chemistry, Leadership, Medicine, Monotheism, Tactics, Democracy, Theology, Communism, Guerilla Warfare, Environmentalism

You are the weakest link...goodbye!

	09-10-2001 06:02									#66
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Roman: well, now at least you are supplying a reason for your opinion, which lifts you far above many other posters. I knew you would!

The five (later: six) nations only had 25,000 citizens at the most, and the entire Iroquois civilization - including those that entered another confederacy or remained independent - counted not much more than 100,000 souls. So you see, the question: "If they were a civilization, why didn't they build cities?" is not fair.
On the other hand, they controlled a large region - not just where they lived, but huge additional hunting grounds, and quite a few other tribes such as the Delawares were subdued and payed tribute. So their empire was as large as that of many other civilizations that are included in the game. Like other major civilizations, they were military most powerful in their part of the world during their golden age. And like other major civilizations, they made a lot of technological advances - basically starting from scratch around 1300 AD.
So you see, by stricly applying the criterium "must build cities" you miss out on a lot. Others use other criteria with a similar handicap, such as "must have had a large empire" or "must have defeated other civilizations in war".

That is why I chose a different criterium: contribution to the advance of human civilization.

	09-10-2001 06:11									#67
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quote: Originally posted by orange So now they're "mere bands of nomads" while you've been saying all along that BEFORE European contact (prior to 1570) they had all that tech!

No, I said they WERE mere bands of nomads some CENTURIES before the CONFEDERACY. Around 1000 AD they started to plant corn. Viking explorers reported (and thereby dated) this change in their way of living from 500 years earlier.

I have a gift for you, btw:

quote: Due to the weight restrictions, titanium was decided to be the best metal to use in the engines, but this came with problems. The quality of titanium varied from batch to batch; it was difficult to weld; and it was in short supply. To overcome these problems, the development team had to perform extensive research on the unknown metal. ... After just one year of testing the new engine, named the Iroquois, significance performance achievements were recorded in December 1955. Aerodynamically and mechanically, the engine performed satisfactorily. In the following years, endurance tests were passed, indicating the success of the project. The American military co-operated with the Iroquois testing and development by loaning a B-47 bomber that was fitted with the Iroquois for actual flight-testing. In addition, some engine testing was carried out in American facilities.

	09-10-2001 06:55									#68
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Ribannah - not only are you a troll, but you're quite full of ****.

Roman gave his post, gave his opinion, and gave it with reason before you posted your cheaply disguised flame against him. Now you try to cover your tracks with even more poorly disguised praise...

Here you can see Roman's post in its entirety.

quote: I would not even call Iroquis a civilization* - more like a bunch of tribes, so for me there is no question: Iroquis should not have been included. As for the Arabs though... *I am not trying to insult anyone or sound condescending. But one cannot have a civilization without cities, writing (more advanced than the drawings on skins...), etc. This does not mean that Iroquis were in any way inferior to other peoples, merely that they should not be in a game that is all about civilization.

And here is your post directly afterwards...

quote: but then I was called an idiot for my ridiculous claims that the Iroquois had a government, or farming, or art, etcetera, and that instead they were cannibalistic nomads. Like Roman just did

No where in Romans post, not once, did he say anything bashing you? NO! In fact, he even went out of his way to assure you that he was not trying to be condescending, and was not trying to tarnish Iroquois culture.

After Roman posted...

quote: Hey, I was merely stating my opinion of the Iroquis and made no condescending remarks and in fact I did not even refer to anybody on the boards in any way. Now I can see that some people on these boards are giving you a hard time, but that does not mean you should blame me for that.

You posted...

quote: Roman: well, now at least you are supplying a reason for your opinion, which lifts you far above many other posters. I knew you would!

He said NOTHING different from his original post. You are a liar.

quote: No, I said they WERE mere bands of nomads some CENTURIES before the CONFEDERACY. Around 1000 AD they started to plant corn. Viking explorers reported (and thereby dated) this change in their way of living from 500 years earlier.

Planting corn -> Engineering/Metallurgy/Navigation in less than 500 years? Amazing! It only took The Eurasian world took 10 times as long to make this technological leap, and they had 100 times more population than Native America. No wonder you are so supportive of the Iroquois. They were all outrageously smart!

Incase you can't tell...

quote: Due to the weight restrictions, titanium was decided to be the best metal to use in the engines, but this came with problems. The quality of titanium varied from batch to batch; it was difficult to weld; and it was in short supply. To overcome these problems, the development team had to perform extensive research on the unknown metal. ... After just one year of testing the new engine, named the Iroquois, significance performance achievements were recorded in December 1955. Aerodynamically and mechanically, the engine performed satisfactorily. In the following years, endurance tests were passed, indicating the success of the project. The American military co-operated with the Iroquois testing and development by loaning a B-47 bomber that was fitted with the Iroquois for actual flight-testing. In addition, some engine testing was carried out in American facilities.

They could name it "Byzantine" "Fijian" or "King Kong" for all I care. This little snippit does not warrant the Iroquois civ being in the game, and is the essence of all your pro-Iroquois PC posts - absolutely nothing of substance!

This is tons of fun Ribannah, keep it coming. At this rate I'll make Deity by November

	09-10-2001 14:30									#69
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Debates are held to expound on a topic to the end that people will change their minds about said topic.

I would say that this debate has failed in this respect. And it also has no relevance to a game that has gone 'gold', and obviously had no effect on Firaxis.

It is like debating about sesame seads on a Quarter Pounder With cheese- McD isn't going to do a d*mn thing about them.

[the sesame seeds, I mean]

	09-10-2001 16:46									#70
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then all of these threads, minus the praise threads, don't have a purpose here either. We can debate whatever we want. Don't like it, you don't have to post.

	09-10-2001 17:30									#71
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Roman's first post:

quote: Originally posted by Roman I would not even call Iroquis a civilization* - more like a bunch of tribes, so for me there is no question: Iroquis should not have been included.

Roman's second post:

quote: Originally posted by Roman Ribannah, I respect your arguments, but a group of people without cities cannot possibly be considered a civilization IMO.

In case you still have trouble reading, the key phrases are:

"a group of people without cities cannot possibly be considered a civilization"
and "Ribannah, I respect your arguments"

If only one side uses arguments, there can be no debate.
If only one side shows respect, there will be no debate.

It's as simple as that. With these simple phrases, Roman, as always, proves worthy of MY respect and deserves MY effort to state my case. So do most posters.

You, and a few others with a big mouth, deserve my pity at best. You started out reasonably promising, but you completely lost it since. When I correct some of your most blatant nonsense, I don't do that for you, but for others who are reading or participating in the thread. Don't mistake that for a debate.

	09-10-2001 19:01									#72
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What you posted

quote: Roman's first post: I would not even call Iroquis a civilization* - more like a bunch of tribes, so for me there is no question: Iroquis should not have been included.

What you ommitted

quote: *I am not trying to insult anyone or sound condescending. But one cannot have a civilization without cities, writing (more advanced than the drawings on skins...), etc. This does not mean that Iroquis were in any way inferior to other peoples, merely that they should not be in a game that is all about civilization.

quote: In case you still have trouble reading, the key phrases are: "a group of people without cities cannot possibly be considered a civilization"

This was stated in his FIRST POST. You are a liar

Face it. The only thing that made you suddendly praise Roman was the fact that he said he respected your arguments. Not the fact that he neglected to back up his opinion in his first post.

quote: Don't mistake that for a debate.

Yes. Because you have never given anything of substance. Nothing that even remotely proves your point. There are others, however, who make reasonable points that I even found myself not only acknowledging but agreeing with! They have my respect. You do not deserve anyone's respect, and certainly not Roman's since he DID back up his opinion the very first time he posted. However, he was kind enough to give it to you. Consider it charity. Now bug off.

	09-10-2001 20:07									#73
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You are right, I seem to have missed that part of Roman's original post. I should have known better .
Roman, my sincerest apologies to you!

For the rest of your post, orange, I find myself at a loss. I have not the faintest idea what it is you expect me to prove, let alone why I should be obliged to make the effort in face of the affront you give me.

	09-10-2001 21:33									#74
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quote: For the rest of your post, orange, I find myself at a loss. I have not the faintest idea what it is you expect me to prove, let alone why I should be obliged to make the effort in face of the affront you give me.

This all began as a "Why the Iroquois should/should not be included in the game" spin off of a thread, and another thread currently on the topic. You firmly back the side that the Iroquois should be in the game. This is fine. But when you started posting nonsense IE your list of technology the Iroquois had prior to European contact, I had to do more than argue my opinion that the Iroquois shouldn't be in the game.

However, you continued to defend what you posted, and as such, I continued to show why you were and are wrong. You can't be right or wrong on an opinion, that of thinking the Iroquois should or should not be in the game. However, the 'facts' that you provided to back up your opinion are not truthful, and very misleading. If you don't want to debate this anymore, fine! I don't have a personal vendetta against you, Ribannah, or the Iroquois...just the nonsense that you've been posting about them. I'll continue to denounce half-truths and falsities if they should appear in your posts or anyone elses.

Again, I don't care if you support the Iroquois being in Civ III...it's an opinion. I have the opposite opinion, and a debate can exist about why each side feels the way they feel.

On a lighter note: the poll seems to have changed course. A once even poll now shows a clear majority against Iroquois inclusion in Civ III. The PC debate is still a close one, with 24 feeling the Iroquois are in the game for PC reasons, and 30 opposed.

	09-10-2001 22:14									#75
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Is this of some significance? I mean, besides bashing eachother, is there any point to a thread devoted to wether the Iroquis in Civ3 is a "right" thing or a "PC" thing or whatever?

Both sides seem to have missed some crucial points. Ribanah acts (as I can estimate) out of pure sentimental reasons and is making some gross exagarations in order to prove her point.

Orange and co are trashing Iroquis and the whole (north) amerindian culture, in order to prove that they shouldn't be included in the game.

As I said, there are some obvious flaws in both sides.

What were the Iroquis:

- A civilization that made some significant achievements in the fields of politics and agriculture. The US constitution (I am not saying this, people who are studying this subject hard are) is based largely in a)the ideas of the French enlightment, b)the Charta of Britain and c)the Iroquis confederation.

What were the Iroquis not:

- A large civilization, with a massive effect on human history.

As to wether it should or should not be in Civ3... I believe it should. It serves diversity and that is what counts after all - the fact that we are not all the same and never will.

Of course, as many have pointed out, by that very same manner, the Arabs should be in the game, and also the Spaniards. If I was Firaxis, I would definitely include the Arabs in the place of the Persian, and perhaps the Spaniards (allthough, I would have a great dillema on whom to abolish - the French are far too important to be left out, gosh are you barbaric or something? The French ideas have shaped the world and some of you want them out? ) and I would definitely trash the bleeding Zulus for the Ethiopian or the Nubians (I'd rather include the latter).

Peace, brothers

	09-10-2001 22:21									#76
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Denouncing gets you nowhere, surely you must have noticed that by now. It is ratio that might discover falsehoods. My sources aren't perfect, and neither am I. I am quite willing to adjust my statements if appropriate, and have shown that many times in the past.

About your poll: it is very misleading, because the choice "they are deserving and have been included", which I would vote for, is absent!

LOVE HIAWATHA!! LOVE HIAWATHA!!

	09-10-2001 22:23									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ubik Is this of some significance? I mean, besides bashing eachother, is there any point to a thread devoted to wether the Iroquis in Civ3 is a "right" thing or a "PC" thing or whatever?

No less signifigant than anything else debated or discussed on this forum.

quote: Orange and co are trashing Iroquis and the whole (north) amerindian culture, in order to prove that they shouldn't be included in the game.

Untrue. I think there is a lot that the American Indians should be praised for. What she provides are as you said, gross over-exaggerations.

quote: - A civilization that made some significant achievements in the fields of politics and agriculture. The US constitution (I am not saying this, people who are studying this subject hard are) is based largely in a)the ideas of the French enlightment, b)the Charta of Britain and c)the Iroquis confederation.

Notice how the Articles of Confederation lasted not ten years before being replaced? The American system is not based on Iroquois confederation.

quote: As to wether it should or should not be in Civ3... I believe it should. It serves diversity and that is what counts after all - the fact that we are not all the same and never will.

You're entitled to this opinion

quote: Of course, as many have pointed out, by that very same manner, the Arabs should be in the game, and also the Spaniards.

This is my opinion. These civs were superior to the Iroquois. That is why I feel they deserve to be in the game. No less "cultural diversity" by including them over the Iroquois. If there was 32 civs, I'd support the Iroquois and maybe another tribe like the Sioux.

	09-10-2001 22:34									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ubik What were the Iroquis: - A civilization that made some significant achievements in the fields of politics and agriculture.

As well as military and social skills.

quote: The US constitution (I am not saying this, people who are studying this subject hard are) is based largely in a)the ideas of the French enlightment, b)the Charta of Britain and c)the Iroquis confederation. What were the Iroquis not: - A large civilization, with a massive effect on human history. As to wether it should or should not be in Civ3... I believe it should. It serves diversity and that is what counts after all - the fact that we are not all the same and never will.

But, Ubik, this differs in no way from what I have been saying all along!
However, I have also said that size and effect on history (both of which would speak in favour of the Spanish) are not the criteria I would use. My main criterium is contribution to the advance of human civilization, with diversity
added for reasons of gameplay and fun.

My criterium calls for the Arabs (to place the Persians), but not for the Spanish. However, everybody is entitled to using their own criteria and if that leads them to the conclusion that the Spanish should be in instead of the Iroquois, I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is people denying me the right to have MY criterium or to use the available info to make my conclusions.

Skennen!

	09-10-2001 22:38									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah My main criterium is contribution to the advance of human civilization, with diversity added for reasons of gameplay and fun.

What new ideas do you feel the Iroquois have brought to the advance of human civilization?

Also, by this logic, the Spanish should be VERY important.

	09-10-2001 22:58									#80
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Ubik's post and my reply, as well as Firaxis' civ description, should give you an idea about the Iroquois. For details, for the moment I advise you to read some of my earlier posts (I will be back later when I have more time).

What did the Spanish contribute?

	09-10-2001 23:12									#81
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Orange, Miss I-know-everything-you-are-awfully-ignorant has yet to realize that for many people on Earth, a key point in human civilization advancement is the fostering of the arts. When she realizes that, she will understand that many people on Earth consider the paintings by Goya, Velazquez or Picasso (to cite only three "barely" recognizable names in a single discipline) as important in terms of advancement of human knowledge as e.g. the discovery of nuclear fission. But hey, what am I talking about? Miss I-know-etc-etc already wondered in a different thread what does art have to do with anything

I could go on and on talking about other branches of knowledge but it's totally useless. No less than twenty people have already tried to talk in a civilized manner to her about this and other topics to absolutely no avail.


(EDIT: Spelling)

Last edited by Jay Bee on 09-10-2001 at 23:37

	09-10-2001 23:54									#82
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Ribanah My opinion - that the Iroquis should be in the game - is not based on wether the I. are "more important" than the Spaniards - they are not.

The Spanish civ - along with some of the most memorable atrocities ever commited - gave us too much to be ignored. In the fields of art, in opening a whole new world for the Euros (well, that could fall into the category of said atrocities ...) advances in naval technic, in art and literature, dominated half world till lost to the Brits, art again... damned, they were not excactly an insignificant civ, on the contrary they are very significant. Not to mention that half Americas and a number of other countries have Spanish as their first language (USA is next, wait and you'll see them latinos changing the "official" English )

It couldn't though be a call between the Iroquis and the Spaniards - if the I. were to be removed, the Mayan or Incan should be placed there. The Americas need at least a third civ.

And I believe not in diversity in game terms, but cultural diversity in general. Don't mess those two.

To the bottom line, 16 civs is just way too little... to have all the really significant civs and serve diversity (or representation of the whole earth) in the same time, the minimum number is 24 civs and the ideal would be around 30.

The 16 civs are a compromise and as such we have to face it...

	10-10-2001 00:35									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah What did the Spanish contribute?

Oh, so here we go again? Ribannah, will you never learn?

	10-10-2001 00:55									#84
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Now we have a Spanish-American alliance againt the Iroquois;
the Spanish because they have been left out and the Americans because some of them take a narrow view of other cultures.

The Iroquois are in to fill up the American land mass with enough civilisations. If it compensates for America's history of dealing dishonourably with native Americans, so be it.

	10-10-2001 01:23									#85
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No Myrddin, don't misunderstand. If anything, this is an 'alliance' against arrogance. Ubik put it out quite well twice, please read his posts again.

	10-10-2001 01:48									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ubik I would have a great dillema on whom to abolish - the French are far too important to be left out, gosh are you barbaric or something? The French ideas have shaped the world and some of you want them out? ) Peace, brothers

That would be me.

Actually, my point was that there are currently 3 Western European cultures in the game (4 if you count the Americans as such, which essentially it is), and 2 Southern European civs, and the Russians are an Eastern European Civ, giving a total of 6 civs out of 16 from Europe. While that may reflect Europe's dominant role in shaping world history, I think it is a little TOO Europe-heavy. Of the European cultures given, I can only imagine dropping the French.

Yes, I know they were very important, but when compared to the contributions of the other European civs, I think they are the most expendable.

Cheers.

	10-10-2001 02:27									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah What did the Spanish contribute?

Ribanita, same question, same answer:

quote: Originally posted by Waku in "The most glaring omission..." thread Spaniards taught the world how to cross the ocean, Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves...

since you weren't able to refute it

	10-10-2001 02:51									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Myrddin Now we have a Spanish-American alliance againt the Iroquois; the Spanish because they have been left out and the Americans because some of them take a narrow view of other cultures.

I'm the last person you want to label a racist or ethnocentric. So I respectfully ask that you **** off.

	10-10-2001 02:53									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Ubik's post and my reply, as well as Firaxis' civ description, should give you an idea about the Iroquois. For details, for the moment I advise you to read some of my earlier posts (I will be back later when I have more time).

No Ribannah. Don't refer me to another post. You have made several (none of which I believe have any content whatsoever)

I want you to post one achievement that the Iroquois civilization gave to the advancement of the human race, without help, before European contact.

quote: What did the Spanish contribute?

This is truly, truly ignorant.

	10-10-2001 02:56									#90
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Ubik - thanks for clarifying what your opinion is

Btw: yes, it is a shame that there are only 16 civs in the game...32 IMO would give an awesome representation of the most dominant civs in history. Maybe we'll see 16 civs in the XP...hopefully not just 4 or 6.

The Americas do need another civ, IMO the Maya or Inca would do better than the Iroquois, but I still believe that the Spanish and Arabs got short changed, moreso the Spanish since there is no representation of post Roman Empire Iberian Civilization in the game, yet there are a few Middle East civs which can be thought of as "evolving" into the Arabs...(even if this is factually and historically false...)