08-10-2001 05:27									#31
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quote: Education and a strong good moral conviction (being good) are better substitutes for religion. Religion has laid the groundwork for such moral codes, but too many Osama bin Laden's and David Koresh's exist. These people pervert their religions to justify murder, persecution, and oppression.

You said it yourself by using the word "pervert." Religion itself isn't the culprit, it's the fanatics who misuse religion as a pretext for violence and hate that are the problem. Fundamentalists of any stripe, whether they be religious or atheist, are responsible for much of the hatred and evil of the world.

quote: educated people tend to be less religious.

The most educated and intelligent people I have ever met, including brilliant scientists, were quite religious. They just weren't fanatics or fundamentalist. Einstein was very much a fan of God.

I believe religion is responsible for a critical amount of good work in the world, and that in truth it does offset the bad. Look at the social justice work of the Catholic Church in Central and South America. The Soup Kitchens, shelters and religious charities all across the Western world. More importantly, for most people, religion does provide the good morals and desire to perform good works that you describe. A few bad apples get all the attention, though.

And I say all of this as an Agnostic who, while believing there is a God of some form as yet unknown to man, still respects and admires those good souls who have real religious devotion and do good works.

And as for religion being responsible for billions of deaths...Last century, atheist communist regimes sparked more bloodshed than religious ones. So perhaps the tide has turned in favor of atheism being more bloody?

Now as for the game...I don't think Sid and co. were worried about encountering a PC backlash. After all, EU employs religious conflict, and I don't think people got offended. I just think they felt the scope of introducing such a concept would have been far too much in terms of keeping gameplay focused and balanced. They also want to keep somewhat of a "generic" feeling to the civs, and introducing specific religions would undermine that to a degree.

Cheers.

PS-- My great-grandfather was a Methodist minister, and he was perhaps one of the most intelligent and compassionate persons you could imagine.

	08-10-2001 05:33									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And as for religion being responsible for billions of deaths...Last century, atheist communist regimes sparked more bloodshed than religious ones. So perhaps the tide has turned in favor of atheism being more bloody?

They were not communist (see my earlier post). And as an atheist I don't respect such régimes' actions any more than my Moslem friends appreciate Islamic terrorism. (Not that I'm suggesting you suggested I did)

EDIT: Minor rewording

	08-10-2001 05:34									#33
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Lets take your original quote:

quote: Originally posted by SoulAssassin Religion is what's wrong with the world! I equate religious people to cavemen worshipping campfires. All the violence in the world is about religion in one for or another. I believe that science is becoming the common source for people's answers of "why are we here". In the next hundred years, more and more people will begin to see how stupid religion is and they will abandon it and look towards science. Did you ever notice how more religious people tend to be less educated? And isn't it funny how most of the educated people of the world are less religious? Look at many of the top scientists in the world. In a thousand years, historians will look back at this era and recognize it as the time when humans evolved and stepped away from the primitive beliefs of early civilizations.

My point was that the way you phrased your opinion was very inappropriate. That is why I changed a few of the nouns to show how similar in form it is to a fanatical message. The point is, that you made religion seem like by far the biggest flaw in society with your statement "All the violence in the world is about religion in one for or another." A fanatical person similarly equates all that is wrong in the world to nonbelievers (I strongly condemn this).

You do not justify your thoughts. You repeatedly refer to religion as "stupid" and "primitive." You insult religious people throughout. This is the sort of stuff that fanatics do too, just to a different group of people. That was all I was trying to point out. I just feel you stated your opinions on religion harshly and inappropriately.

Now back to topic:

I think this is why religion was not included in the game.

	08-10-2001 05:38									#34
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quote: Originally posted by JellyDonut They were not communist (see my earlier thread). And as an atheist I don't respect such régimes' actions any more than my Moslem friends appreciate Islamic terrorism. (Not that I'm suggesting you suggested I did)

What you said in your post was correct, but I call those regimes communist rather than Marxist. For me, Marxism is the ideal, Communism the grim reality.

And I most certainly was not suggesting that! I was suggesting by means of irony the opposite of what I know you're not suggesting I suggest--er, that I suggested you suggest--um...

Oh, f*ck it.

Cheers.

	08-10-2001 07:35									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Akron I think this is why religion was not included in the game.

LOL

Go to the other thread guys, I don't want Markos to close this off. The original topic is a good one.

My earlier caveman post was a little harsh, I should have said, "I equate fundamentalists to cavemen worshipping fire."

If religion were in Civ games, then I think some less intellegent gamers would start to hate the *yourcivhere* because they attacked in the name of *yourdietyhere*. Then I'm sure Sid would get sued for starting hate crimes, and then they would confiscate all copies of Civ and then I would have to play another Activision civ rip off.

	08-10-2001 20:43									#36
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Firaxis handled religion well in SMAC...planet-busting, red head that crushes the peaceable Gaians in the name of GOD...excellent stuff.

	08-10-2001 20:50									#37
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It would have been nice that religion was a bigger part of the game because that really is what caused many wars in the past. If anything, it would have been more historically accurate.

After all, look what it's done on this thread. Say one thing against religion and BANG!... you got yourself an instant heated discussion.

	08-10-2001 21:04									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin After all, look what it's done on this thread. Say one thing against religion and BANG!... you got yourself an instant heated discussion.

I would say the opposite is just as true, that it if one says anything in favor of religion, they get jumped on.

Speaking as an unreligious person, I find nothing noble or admirable about those who knee-jerk trash all religion. What right do you have to expect people of different beliefs to respect yours if you don't respect theirs? I think a lot of the bad rap given to atheists and agnostics is due to their own fanatics, the fundamentalist atheists who seem to have excessive hatred of religion.

Live and let live is my motto. I refuse to trash the religions of others to make me somehow feel superior about my own spiritual philosophy.

*Steps down from soapbox*

	08-10-2001 21:07									#39
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Ok... for or against religion. You're right, it really doesn't matter.

	08-10-2001 21:27									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Speaking as an unreligious person, I find nothing noble or admirable about those who knee-jerk trash all religion. What right do you have to expect people of different beliefs to respect yours if you don't respect theirs? I think a lot of the bad rap given to atheists and agnostics is due to their own fanatics, the fundamentalist atheists who seem to have excessive hatred of religion.

You are absolutely right. You don't need to be religious to be fanatical. All you need is an idea you strongly believe in and the desire to force this idea upon others. The point is, philosophers are supposed to make ideas available to people, not force them on people.

Religion would be cool and realistic, but it is highly likely that many people would take offense, as SoulAssassin already said. I'm just gonna think of it as part of culture, which it sorta is.

	09-10-2001 07:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Einstein was very much a fan of God.

You've got to be joking. Einstein was an athiest!! When his theory proved that God existed, he considered that the biggest failure of his life.

	09-10-2001 07:18									#42
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Even though religion isn't a big part of CivIII per se, it in a sense is conveyed through culture I suppose.