18-10-2001 15:27									#31
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I'm with Templar (who largely matches WesW's MedMod governments) except for the inclusion of "future" versions. I don't think we'll be ready for anything truly different by 2040 or whenever the game ends. If anything we are currently in danger of backsliding to more authoritarian governments.

Each age needs a balance of 3 or more differing styles of government that offset each other well but are all modestly superior to forms found in earlier ages. Partly to reward the scientific achievement of getting there and partly to reflect improving methods of communication and slowly rising levels of wealth and education of even the poorest members of societies whose government form has remained static for centuries.

	18-10-2001 17:09									#32
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Personally, I would like a government where the senate didn't interfere in my decisions and where I could have more cities under my control than has been allowed in previous games. Guess I'm a control freak! If Civ III lets you win by conquering a percentage of the the total number of cities or civilizations, that would be an acceptable alternative. What I hated was having dozens of middling cities to annihilate (had to look that one up in the dictionary ) because capturing them would give me unhappiness points. I had enough of those anyway!

Anyway, as you say, too late for changes now. Bye the way, I have ordered the LE from US but will buy the standard addition in the UK as a Christmas present for my daughter and will try - yes I will - to resist installing that on to my computer until my own LE wings its way accross the Atlantic! Do you think that I will succeed? Also, I hope Amazon US wraps it well as I don't want dents in my tin!! Finally, you lucky folks who get the game quickly, please don't forget to tell us unfortunates how good it is!

Jan

	19-10-2001 00:50									#33
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I like the idea of having 3 or so governments per age, so that not eveyrone goes to democracy when they get it and then Fundamentalism when they have all the sciences. Though they may not be the best governments out there, there are definetely still authoritarian governments in existence. They do have certain advantages such as no senate to worry about, and martial law.

I also think that there should be two types of Communism. There should be True Communism like what Marx wanted but has not yet been done, and there should be what was seen in the Soviet Union and still other countries (China and Cuba) today.

Direct Democracy is not a future government. There are a few (small) countries today that use a Direct Democracy. The problem with a Direct Democracy is the logistics. How would you work that sort of government in Civ, where all decisions are made by the people? You would need lots of luxuries in that type of government...

	19-10-2001 02:36									#34
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It would be nice to ban some government types from some Nations/civs - like the americans could be banned from communist governments with their well known hatred of this gov.
This might unbalance things a bit but could make it a lot more fun and strategic.
These civs could disaprove and declare war more on otheres that hold their nemesis (hated) government type.

What about a Green party government with no pollution and extra happiness, but bad industrial production and science. It could have better culture for a cultural game win.

There shuld be a proper right wing government, fundamentalism was too religious based though.
I liked fundamentalists ability to make spies cause less controversy and scandals when used.

	19-10-2001 03:41									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ It would be nice to ban some government types from some Nations/civs - like the americans could be banned from communist governments with their well known hatred of this gov. This might unbalance things a bit but could make it a lot more fun and strategic.

No way. Lots of Americans are communists. During the Great Depression, there were a lot of people in America who questioned the capitalist system. If it weren't for the success of the New Deal, etc., we might have had our own communist revolution... who knows. Anyway, my point is that you shouldn't prevent a civ from doing it just because the Civ hasn't done it yet in the "real world."

quote: These civs could disaprove and declare war more on otheres that hold their nemesis (hated) government type.

Maybe... but policy is more likely to dictate hate than government. There are a great many authoritarian governments that the democracies of the world aren't concerned about, because they aren't agressive or belligerent.

quote: What about a Green party government with no pollution and extra happiness, but bad industrial production and science. It could have better culture for a cultural game win.

Sounds like a democracy, but with high luxury rates at the expense of science, and no factories plus many mass transits plus recycling plants. What's the difference?

Lorizael: Direct Democracy is not a government that could work in Civ2 (IMO, it could never work in real life, but that's something for the OT) because there would be no ruler. The government would be constantly changing its course and would be very chaotic... Since there would be no authoritative leader, you couldn't very well play as a country with direct democracy in Civ.

	19-10-2001 05:18									#36
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Yes, I agree with you that I don't think a direct democracy would be feasible in a Civ type game as we know it. And I also agree that there shouldn't be a Right Wing Gov, or Green Party Gov. That just all depends on how you run your government.

We are looking for government types, not party types or economic systems. That's all up to the player.

	19-10-2001 05:57									#37
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I have no idea what it would do, but you could add
Oligarchy

	19-10-2001 06:26									#38
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You could add direct democarcy - any more than a one size one city and the production goes way down, science goes way down, milatary goes way down, because everyone is spending all their time figuring out what to do and come together

BTW - You wouldn't have a Soviet Union Communism and True Communism cause everyone would obvisily chose a True Communist Country

	19-10-2001 06:32									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold I'm with Templar (who largely matches WesW's MedMod governments) except for the inclusion of "future" versions. I don't think we'll be ready for anything truly different by 2040 or whenever the game ends. If anything we are currently in danger of backsliding to more authoritarian governments. Each age needs a balance of 3 or more differing styles of government that offset each other well but are all modestly superior to forms found in earlier ages. Partly to reward the scientific achievement of getting there and partly to reflect improving methods of communication and slowly rising levels of wealth and education of even the poorest members of societies whose government form has remained static for centuries.

Read my earlier post i have three and now four, we can include the enviromentalist which i forgot til admiral PJ brought it up

Enviromentalism - High Happiness (yes i mean high happiness not low unhappiness), Low Pollution, Low Corruption, Low Production, Low Military, talented spys and diplomats

	19-10-2001 06:34									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Mars You could add direct democarcy - any more than a one size one city and the production goes way down, science goes way down, milatary goes way down, because everyone is spending all their time figuring out what to do and come together BTW - You wouldn't have a Soviet Union Communism and True Communism cause everyone would obvisily chose a True Communist Country

I think a Soviet Union type Communism might be Fascism. Fascism would be the modern day Despotism, Monarchy, etc...

It would have the advantage of Martial Law and the ability to Force Labor your people like hell.

	19-10-2001 06:38									#41
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Once again I don't think that Environmentalism is a government type. I think that is simply how you run your government. You could be an environmentalist under a despotism. Build solar plants and get Ecology!

	19-10-2001 08:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael I think a Soviet Union type Communism might be Fascism. Fascism would be the modern day Despotism, Monarchy, etc... It would have the advantage of Martial Law and the ability to Force Labor your people like hell.

Why not just call it facism then?

	19-10-2001 08:27									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Once again I don't think that Environmentalism is a government type. I think that is simply how you run your government. You could be an environmentalist under a despotism. Build solar plants and get Ecology!

Enviromentalism could be a government. A bunch of cheery tree huggers so around preaching preservation of nature and the like. Thereby acting as a form of pure communism were every contributed in making sure that the ecological state stayed the same. Result lower everything expect for happiness. So there its different than depotism., and don't call it a communist gov cause its different than that every contributes for the good of nature not the good of the society

	19-10-2001 08:30									#44
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It couldn't happen. People aren't that nice. And I still say, you could have a king teaching people to hug trees as much as a president could.

And yes, I would just called th USSR Communism Fascism

	19-10-2001 09:11									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael It couldn't happen. People aren't that nice. And I still say, you could have a king teaching people to hug trees as much as a president could. And yes, I would just called th USSR Communism Fascism

It may be similar in concept but its different in advanages and what not.
And Neither could the true communism but hey its just a game

	19-10-2001 09:26									#46
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If we all agree that so-called "true" democracy doesn't work in Civ3, then it seems logical that so-called "true" communism does not work. CTP's blunders in government had to do with the fact that nobody knows really what a "corporate republic" does. Sure, we can conjure up images and ideas, but all of CTP's future governments were basically abstract thoughts made into meaningless values.

Therefore, there shouldn't be any government (i.e. true demo or true commie) that has not yet existed on Earth... and IMO, never will because human beings are not and will never be perfect, harmonious creatures.

As I previously stated, "governments" that are based on a facet of Civ (i.e. green, corporate, etc.) aren't really governments, but policies. A government, by the Civ definition, is a broad set of paradigms and values that dictates the limits and effectiveness of various policies. A stable and effective government can't be based off a single ideal, like "green gov't" because people think about more things than the environment. That's just how it works.

	19-10-2001 09:31									#47
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Yes, that's what I've been saying. And I guess you're right that we really couldn't have True Communism, requires people to be much nicer than they really are.

So we need to compile a list of all the governments that have ever been used, lol.

Anyone up for it?

	19-10-2001 09:55									#48
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Some of these may be synonyms, I'm just spouting.

Anarchy
Despotism
Tyranny
Autocracy
Monarchy
Theocracy
Feudalism
Republic
Confederation
Senatorial - Presidential Democracy (USA style)
Communism (USSR style)
Socialism
Fascism
Parliamentary Democracy (I think UK style)
Constitutional Monarchy
Parliamentary Monarchy
Hypocracy (just kidding )
Oligarchy
Technocracy
Plutocracy
Fundamentalism

...in no particular order.

	19-10-2001 10:09									#49
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 If we all agree that so-called "true" democracy doesn't work in Civ3, then it seems logical that so-called "true" communism does not work. CTP's blunders in government had to do with the fact that nobody knows really what a "corporate republic" does. Sure, we can conjure up images and ideas, but all of CTP's future governments were basically abstract thoughts made into meaningless values. Therefore, there shouldn't be any government (i.e. true demo or true commie) that has not yet existed on Earth... and IMO, never will because human beings are not and will never be perfect, harmonious creatures. As I previously stated, "governments" that are based on a facet of Civ (i.e. green, corporate, etc.) aren't really governments, but policies. A government, by the Civ definition, is a broad set of paradigms and values that dictates the limits and effectiveness of various policies. A stable and effective government can't be based off a single ideal, like "green gov't" because people think about more things than the environment. That's just how it works.

Err.. SO i guess if you played SMAC everything is just meaningless values. And when you read science fiction all the stuff is meaningless information because its all based on speculation (or as you put it abstract thought). How are these future governments meaningless values. I explained earlier what a corporate republic was (i just called it coporate capitalism)

	19-10-2001 10:23									#50
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I think a few of those could be compressed into one government.

Anarchy would of course be all by itself. Despotism, Tyranny, and Autocracy could be combined. Monarchy and Feudalism should be different though I'm not sure how. Senatorial and Parliamentary Democracy are probably similar enough on the scale of Civ III (except that the UK would lose money to upkeeping the damn royalty! ) What is the difference between Confederation and Republic? An Oligarchy is just a few people who have absolute power, probably have the same effects as Monarchy. Looking up Fascism and Fundamentalism, they are practically the same thing, along with USSR style Communism (forcing beliefs on someone, tyranical, authoratative) Theocracy isn't a specific government so much as a government run by religious leaders. Therefore, a Civ with the Religious CSA would have a Theocratic Democracy, or Theocratic Monarchy, etc... Similarily I think a Plutocracy would be any government for a Commercial Civ. Socialism is actually done today so I believe this could be a form of government in Civ. Does Technocracy exist anywhere in the world, really? Maybe that would just be... any government in a scientific civ.

So, we have...
Anarchy
Despotism
Monarchy
Feudalism
Democracy
Republic
Fascism
Socialism

8... 2 more than Civ III

If anyone has anymore ideas, I'd love to hear them. If anyone disagrees... well, I guess I can handle that...
Next we need to decide exact effects of each government (through the editor screen at least until the game come out)

Oh and Hypocracy exists everywhere!

	19-10-2001 11:32									#51
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Lorizael,
I doubt that Technocracy exists anywhere in the world, but the concept is as old as 1919, and arguablely it is the sort of thing a die hard progressive might favor. A sort of utopia where experts are free to operate without either interference from the will of the people (who are ignorant anyway) or the corruption of money. Of course, this might just be a hyper-idealized communism/planned economy thing. Of course, there is the dystopian aspect of the people feeling disconnected from their "enlightened" leadership.

As for Corporate Republic in CTP, the idea was something like a purely freemarket state - the sort of thing libertarians might introduce, but also with some of the dystopian things that would inebvitably arise (CR had no pollution controls for instance).

Might add these two as endgame governments or something.

	19-10-2001 11:38									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael What is the difference between Confederation and Republic

A confederation is usually considered to be a strong union of independent states, that though they are one body in essence, they still retain much of their independence.

A republic is a government whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president. It is a political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens (electors; electoral college, etc.) who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives (senators and such) responsible to them. This is in contrast to a pure democratic system in which the general populace has direct control over the election of officials.

	19-10-2001 13:04									#53
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Lorizael, Mars:
Russian's communsim and German's fascism, because of many similarities, are very often recognized as a totalitarian systems. Instead of those two, it's better to add Totailtarism.

	19-10-2001 22:08									#54
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Okay, so change Fascism to Totalitarian.

Oh I've got an idea.

What if the endgame, with the right technologies, certain civs could get a specific government that only another civ with the same CSA could get?

A Scientific civ could get Technocracy.
A Religious civ could get Theocracy?
A Commercial civ could get either CR or Plutocracy
An Industrious civ could get... True Communism?

Militaristic and Expansionist civs... can't think of special governments for them. Which screws the Zulus in the endgame as far as perfect govs...

Anyway, in order to get this sort of Utopian government your people would have to absolutely love you, and there would need to be minimum requirements to get the government. For example, you might need 5 Scientist specialists in each city to get the Technocracy. Hmmmm??

Without a scripting language I'm not sure this would be possible in Civ III. But maybe... you could make these Utopian government something like a small wonder... though it wouldn't actually change your government...

	19-10-2001 23:40									#55
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How about different variations of the same sort of government?
Examples:

Despotic Communism: (Stalin, Mao) Cheap forced labour
Open Communism: (Khrushchev, Gorbachev) Modest science and production bonuses.

Capitalist Democracy: (USA) Money bonus
Mixed Democracy: (Modern European countries) Happiness bonus

Imperial Monarchy: Growth orientated
Religious Monarchy: Conquest orientated

Changing variations would not entail a full revolution, just a shorter period of turmoil.

	20-10-2001 01:28									#56
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That sounds like a good idea, once again hard to implement in Civ III. Umm, one thing though, the United States has a mixed market. The government will interfere sometimes (though usually not when a Republican is in power)

	20-10-2001 02:42									#57
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I'd have to disagree about Technocracy having high science, or being for a science civ. You're concentrating too much on the modern meaning of the first 4 letters, but in actuality it means control. Read literature about Technocracies, like Brave New World and 1984, they function as some sort of bizarre amalgam of the most warped aspects of capitalism and communism: everything is very much planned, there's little to no individuality, everyone is instilled the desire to buy and consume and not question authority, and stability is the most important thing to maintain. The people are happy, and just live out meaningless lives of producing and consuming. Not very progessive sounding, almost Theocratic sounding even. Although I suppose there could be a sort of utopian alternative to this distopia, just like I'm sure there would be good and bad aspects of a Corporate Republic.

About Communism in Civ2, I always saw it as how the USSR functioned from Stalin's death to the time of Gorbachev, a sort of "bureaucratic dictatorship" as it's been called, it's highly centralized, but no PERSON really weilds supreme power, it's a sort of groupthink mentality that drives policy (starting to sound not all that different from the US).

I think people like to focus on a production bonus for Communism because of how quickly the agricultural societies of Russia and China and eastern Europe became industrialized, albeit nowhere near on the level of the west, but remarkable in how quickly the level was achieved.'

I'd agree that the USSR under Stalin and maybe even Lenin was similar to Fascism, even though Stalin's fear never roused the popular support of Hitler's. In fact even the economic system's were similar- state controlled capitalism.
Those pseudointellectuals who demand that Communism has nothing to do with politics, since it's an economic theory should know that it's a social theory (since it involves those who control resources and power) based in economics, and that neither of those are independent of politics. Granted, Marx never said anything about the functioning of a communist government, but he never intended to either, although he did say that the US and UK were representative enough and adaptable to change enough to make proletarian revolution unneccessary.

One more thing to this too long post-
I can't believe there's no more Senate! Why? WHY? Sure the Dove party was annoying, but you can't match the chill you get that comes with the message "Hawk party derails attempted Senate interference! Action confirmed!" Ooooooooooh!

	20-10-2001 03:09									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Mars Err.. SO i guess if you played SMAC everything is just meaningless values.

Yes.

quote: And when you read science fiction all the stuff is meaningless information because its all based on speculation (or as you put it abstract thought).

Yes.

quote: How are these future governments meaningless values. I explained earlier what a corporate republic was (i just called it coporate capitalism)

They are meaningless because they have no meaning to most people. To be more precise, they can't be concieved of in full because they are far to deep to explore without them actually happening. For example, how would a so-called "green" government deal with science?

Would science languish, because of a "back to nature" approach?
Would science flourish, because people want to find ways to repair the damage already done to our planet?
Or would something totally different happen?

These "governments" lack depth, because we know them only from one angle. We know that a green government is unique because it would not have industry as a priority... and then we assume that because it is different it can and should be a government, and then we fill in the values that don't necessarily concern production or pollution. But what ends up happening is that everything but the unique part of that government is really a big, formless assumption that neither you nor I can fathom or really relate to. That's why so few people liked all the governments in CTP. What, really, is a Technocracy? What would be the effects of a true democracy on growth? When you can answer these questions, I'll be happy to entertain these governments. But for now, they are just empty and fanciful flights into a single part of society. Civ is more challenging and better modeled if you must adapt your culture to specific policies, not just change governments to solve any problem.

To everyone: There are some good ideas here... I just wish that it was still possible to suggest governments at this point. Oh well, it's fun to do and there might be a Civ4... just try and stop me.

	20-10-2001 03:16									#59
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I don't mind science fiction, in fact I love theorizing of what could be. The problem with the CTP govs is that they focus on one specific attribute and are just a way of doing things within a government, not a government type in and of themselves.

And dude, with the editor, we can make new govs. DAN SAID SO!!!

	20-10-2001 03:22									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael I don't mind science fiction, in fact I love theorizing of what could be. The problem with the CTP govs is that they focus on one specific attribute and are just a way of doing things within a government, not a government type in and of themselves.

Basically what I meant, but more concise. I'm too wordy...

quote: And dude, with the editor, we can make new govs. DAN SAID SO!!!

Computers in general scare me, especially when I have to edit them... but perhaps somebody will make a nice mod for me. You are right, though... there is still some hope for the government-crazed.