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albiedamned
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Ellicott City, MD
Sep 2001
time: 00:15
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Someone mentioned the curious absense of any colonies in these screenshots, and questioned whether that might mean that colonies are not actually that useful. We have to remember that these screenshots were generated by someone at GameSpot who got an early copy of the game and is playing it for the purpose of reporting on it. So maybe that person (or persons) was just trying to muddle through things as quickly as possible and didn't bother to build any colonies (or didn't even realize that option existed). We'll never know, but I don't think the absence of colonies in these screenshots should lead us to any conclusions about their usefulness. Personally, I am very intrigued by the strategy of building a colony in a location where you would never think to put a city due to bad terrain, in order to harvest a resource.
As for the food box being only 20 instead of 40, someone mentioned government type as a possible explanation. Here are two other possibilities: they built the Pyramids somewhere, and granaries are now represented by just showing the food box as size 20 instead of size 40 with a line through it halfway. Of course I don't know if the effect of the Pyramids (granary in each city) is the same as it was in Civ2. Another explanation might be that they are playing on the easiest difficulty level, and on this level the growth rules are relaxed. We have confirmed that the game cheats for the player on the lower levels, so maybe this is an example of that.
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albiedamned
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Ellicott City, MD
Sep 2001
time: 00:15
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Forgot to mention that I definitely agree that the people in Madras should be starving. Clearly only the city square is being worked, so with pop 4 and only 2 food coming in they should be negative 6 food per turn. That doesn't seem to be represented anywhere on this screen, so that is a mystery. Perhaps someone from Firaxis will enlighten us today.
The citizen on the far right has a smiley face under her, so she almost has to be an entertainer. The other three are angry I suspect. Perhaps this is an example of the new conquered city effect, where the citizens don't cooperate. Maybe these people refuse to work, and that's why no city squares are being worked. Hmmm. . .
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:15
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Dry
good pick up on the government types, so food box size is either dependent on city size, being 20 food until hospitals and being 40 food after that, or food box size is dependent on government, also besides those requirements foodbox size might also be effected by difficulty level...all of which seem quite plausible
though i really do not think that the gamespot pictures were made in cheat mode, because it is either a late beta of the game or more likely a gold copy, and as Dan Magaha stated, civ3 doesn't have a cheat menu
albiedamned
if Pyramids do still act as granary in each city, then it would have done the granary split like in the other shots, because granaries don't cut food in half, it just saves half of your food
Ozymandous, albiedamned, lockstep, HsFB
well as you can see in Ozymandous's screenshot, all citizens should eat two food, even the newly conquered Indian civilians (look at Madras and Deli)...as to why the population isn't starving in that one screen shot in Madras, i'm not sure but they should be
also i don't think that the presence of nationals from another civ would make the city act like it has a lower population
it would be helpful if someone could clear this up though
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Crouchback
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We're only going to put the ICS issue to rest when we've got a copy of the game to play *hint* *hint*. But I'm getting increasingly pessimistic about the effect of not letting anyone outside the design team play-test the game before release.
By the way, did any one else notice the return of the luxury slider at the top of this screen shot, despite the repeated assurance that it was gone for good?
I wonder how old these shots are given the gag on other previewers making revelations before 22nd October?
David
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:15
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By the way, is this old news, or does Gamespot have more new screenshots today? Check out:
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filter...261-104,00.html
for instance, for another shot to help answer these questions. I'm just starting to look at the shots now, but one interesting thing I just noticed is forested mountains! Nice.
I'm also guessing the info about the "precision strikes" is new.
Given this new Eisenstein shot, there are some things I think we can figure out.
First off, each citizen eats two food per turn. Eisenstein is thus producing 14 food and eating 14 for no gain.
For Madras, that would mean that the three characters with frowny eyes brows aren't smiling, they're yelling. These are very unhappy foreigners who are doing no work in the city. They aren't producing any food, but they also don't appear to be eating any food. Perhaps they're slaves of some kind? This leaves the veiled woman - look at the round yellow thing just below her - from the Eisenstein shot was can see that is a smiley face showing this person is adding one happiness to the city. I'm guessing this person is an entertainer, and the worked tile is the freebie each city automatically gets.
So this town has only 1 worked tile, explaining why a city of 4 is only producing 2 food per turn. It must be newly conquered, which is why it has no improvements or garrison yet despite being a size 4 city.
Eisenstein, meanwhile has 7 pop and 7 worked tiles. However, the guy with the bone through the head looks like he's an entertainer. So we can see only 6 pop are really working, and there's the one free city tile, making up the 7.
Not good news for ICS. We can also see a Granary in action.
Last edited by Harlan on 19-10-2001 at 02:18
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OneFootInTheGrave
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Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:15
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Well on that screenshot there is a city size 24, with 2 food extra, and it can grow one pop in 15 turns, box is size 30 to fill with the granary improvement, and citizens consume 50 food per turn. Well from here it seems that it has all 20 tiles used, and the most food on the tile is 4. If you would have a city in grassland with all the tiles producing 4 food that would mean 34 food extra is max at this point. (21*4=84 -50 =34) For a size 20 city that would be 42 food extra 
That would leave the old 41 citizens in the city limit as the max, but it seems that one could get there really fast if there is no other constrictions. From 20 to 26 citizens you could come within 5-6 turns with a max food city, plus up to 32 an if I am correct in next 12 turns. That could mean that it is more beneficial to have a big city growing fast than a lot of small cities producing settlers to expand as in Civ 2 ICS. The same migh be true even with medium sized cities, if you have enough tech to buld aquaducts/ hospitals. Once you get near 20 pop you can start to produce settlers as fast as you can, but this will hopefully be late in the game, and that woudl mean that the player who builds a city up to that size first will have significant advantage over the ones who are still coming up at that point even if they have more cities. (many more?)
The extra citizens in such a city should generate a lot more tech/ money as scientists/ tax-men, comparing to smaller cities. So it seems that the ramp up the settlers strategy could be left for late game. (perhaps cities sized 16-17) .
just for reference size 16 city with max food would have 17*4=68 food and 34 would be eaten which leaves 34 food for expansion. a bit too much isn't it. However it is rare to have max food cities at all, and it would depend on the government, tech if you could develop to those city sizes. Once you get trough these obstacles there is no reason not to ramp up the settlers production.
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Father Beast
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My head stuck permanently in my civ
Feb 2000
time: 22:15
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The ICSer has advantage also by being able to build cities right on top of needed resources, and just a few roads connect them to the capitol, where they are available to all your cities.
the gone, now ressurected luxury slider was previuosly eliminated (I think) to force people to rely on resources instead. now it's back, and the luxury resources are still there. with only 3 or 4 kinds of luxuries permeating your empire, you can keep the riot factor at bay in small cities with minimal policing. 5 or 6 luxury items circulating, and your people are kept content with size 3 cities, all black faced, no hanging gardens (which comes only with monarchy), and a single soldier.
BTW, Korn, what is the danger of army laundering when units no longer have home cities?
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OneFootInTheGrave
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Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:15
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oops this was an earlier accident
Last edited by OneFootInTheGrave on 19-10-2001 at 19:33
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OneFootInTheGrave
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Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:15
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Yes the food box is size 60, but granary halves it, so you only need 30 food to go one pop up. But that was just an idea that might make you want to grow big cites which will than have higher yields in tech/ econ, rather than smaller cities that will have much smaller yields, and will not have time to catch up. Ie a size 30 city will be able to produce settlers quickly, build pop back quickly and expand. Size 4 city will need much more time to build the same, and it loses 2 pop points. Which I think makes it too early to start ICS. I think size 10 maybe 9 is about right, since than you will be able to switch the workers between food producing and shield producing tiles, in order to optimize for expansion. However it may be that not producing settlers until you grow to size 15-16 is more effective, since you will not have to wait so long for 2 pop to appear back. And than size 20. since you have workers on all fields. And if you need to wait for 10 turns to size 25 you might just wait for that too???
I think that we need to know at which size does the 40 food box turn into 60 (It might be the traditional size 12) . As well as the cost of granary. Settlers cost 60 shields and 2 pop, and cannot build roads, you need a worker for that.
So If you are a civ with pottery, and get a granary at the start.1 settler = 1 town on grassland with 10 grassland 5 plains 3 hills and 2 unusable (mountains/swamp/desert)
START
1 free tile + 1 worker tile. =4 food (+2), 2 shields, 2 gold
turns--------no of workers------no of shields------------gold
20------------------ 2-----------------------40 ----------------- 40
3 tiles worked= 6food (+2) 3 shields 2 gold
I guess that a granary could be built by now (for 80?), and cut the pop time in a half. (only 20 food now)so the granary would be built on turn 34. and the city would be size 3 on turn 37 with 6 shields and I will ignore gold from now on.
turn 37 size 3; tiles 4; food (+2) shields 4/turn (+6left)
producing settler.
In 10 turns I will get another pop, and now rioting factor could be an issue on higher levels. (already at size 3) but lets assume that there is none for a city size 4.
turn 47 size 4, tiles 5, food +2, shields +5.
turn 50 settler built.
city goes back to size 2 with a granary now, 6 food in the box. Growing at +2 (no food lost for settler support) with +3 shields.
The settler2 will take 2 turns to settle and another 50 to create another one.
the original settler (settler1) will now need 10 turns to get the pop up, and lets see.
turn 60 city1 size 3 food +2, shields +3( 30)
turn 70 city size 4 settlers built, and city is back to size 2, and it took only 20 turns to build the second settler -Settler3. So at
turn 90 settler 4
turn 100 settler 5(from settler2)
turn 110 settler 6... and whoa they are breeding like rabbits.
HOWEVER THERE IS A FLAW IN THIS CALCULATION that I noticed. There is no free shields now! So you might get one at the beginning in the city, but there is no +2 food and +3 shields. Or is there. Graslland field with a mine gives +2. What about those free shields on the screenshot on the tiles with 4 food and 2 gold? Either way if you spend some time to build a worker you can easily ram up the production than and settlers will be done ion 20 turns. Which leaves ICS as a winner?
What did I miss?
Well this leaves a bit sour taste. But I haven't checked this really well there might be problems in my model other than possible shields missing. However with so small food boxes the weight would go back to number of shields produced as the determining factor for ICS in Civ III.
So shields will slow the whole thing hopefully there is no free food and shields when you build a city on resources. That should help a lot. Now we need this model checked and a 'normal' development model.
One more non-ICS thingy is the riot factor might be big enough to stop the expansion of the cities early on too.
So we have
1. the lack of shields
2. riot factor on harder levels.
3. could be the fast growth once a city reaches 15+ size, which goes together with 2 pop and 60 shields for the settler initially.
4. culture?
But it does not look promising on lower levels with low rioting factors.
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