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Dida
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I think we should honor the people died in 9-11 by making the World Trade Center towers Great Wonder of the World. Which give +10% gold in the host Civ.
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squid
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quote:
Originally posted by Rasbelin
Okay, I have upgraded my WoW list.
This is the new version of it:
...Maginot Line... |
LOL....What does it do? Causes you to waste all of your money on a huge defense project, only to get your ass kicked because they came from the other direction?
The Maginot Line may have been the worst defensive fortification of all time!
Some of these ideas are silly. It's like you are trying to be politicially correct on purpose to get your countries in. No one cares of the Amsterdam Stock Exchange. The Taj Mahal is a building, but it never served any purpose....
MIT is vastly overrated of course. They dwell on obfuscating theory and touting AI, when of course there are twenty universities in the nation of equal caliber in the AI sector. It's much like UC Berkley...live on the edge, talk like you are smoking crack, and you get a reputation. UMass, Berkley, NC State, John Hopkins, and Carnegie Mellon are all on par with MIT, if not above in many areas.
I could go on, but I don't feel like it.
As for the "make it a world program", please consider that
1) Firaxis is in Maryland
2) most customers are going to be in the US.
3) It would be a pain to make everyone happy with different versions.
Save your breath. You're going to get what you are going to get.
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Your.Master
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Port Elgin, Ontario, Canada
Apr 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dida
I think we should honor the people died in 9-11 by making the World Trade Center towers Great Wonder of the World. Which give +10% gold in the host Civ. |
A) We've been saying for a while that this game is too US-centric.
B) I don't want to crush anybody's feelings, I know this is a hard time and all, and people have died, but just because something was attacked doesn't mean it's a wonder.
That said, I say that the World Trade centre buildings would be a GREAT replacement for the joke wonder, Statue of Liberty...or more properly for Wall Street (WTC was a great engineering feat. I've been hearing recently claims that they used to be the tallest freestanding structures in the world, which is funny, because every reliable statistic I've found on the net says that the CN tower is slightly taller and freestanding, but nonetheless...I mean, the CN tower doesn't DO anything).
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CygnusZ
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quote:
Originally posted by Your.Master
GREAT replacement for the joke wonder, Statue of Liberty...or more properly for Wall Street (WTC was a great engineering feat.
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Eh, the WTC rings hollow for me. Statue of Liberty is a proud symbol of american heterogeneity whereas the WTC was just a shrine to greed. Then again, Wall Street is also a pretty terrible "wonder".
Perhaps I feel that the Statue of Liberty is more approriate because it is symbolic of an ideal which is what the concepts of wonder's illustrate. Pyramids, The Globe Theater, SETI even Wall Street (I agree with you, that's a pretty poor wonder) represent ideals as well as physical manifestations. WTC simply never (when it was standing) had any ideal about it.
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drake
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Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Eh, the WTC rings hollow for me. Statue of Liberty is a proud symbol of american heterogeneity whereas the WTC was just a shrine to greed. Then again, Wall Street is also a pretty terrible "wonder".
Perhaps I feel that the Statue of Liberty is more approriate because it is symbolic of an ideal which is what the concepts of wonder's illustrate. Pyramids, The Globe Theater, SETI even Wall Street (I agree with you, that's a pretty poor wonder) represent ideals as well as physical manifestations. WTC simply never (when it was standing) had any ideal about it. |
Wall street epitomizes modern economics and the building of such a wonder could represent one of the highest levels of economic progress in the history of mankind. Its a very good choice for a wonder IMO. Some people who play the game to max out trade, gnp and production, will be particularly interested in well represented modern economic wonders.
The WTC may have (or may not have) been a testament to capitalism and greed, and whether you look at it in a positive or negative fashion, it had both incredible engineering and symoblic power. Much more than many of the ancient wonders.
Pyramids, by the way were also a testament to greed. Huge massive structures built for one reason and one reason only. To bury the wealthy "royalty". It symbolized affluence. Dominance.
Yes, it was an incredible marvel of construction and its longevity is truly un-paralelled, but please do not talk about its symbolism in any different light than a building such as the wtc.
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Yoleus
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Hold it.
Pyramids were built out of a way of thinking and believing.
The people which actually built them were NOT slaves, and the architect which devised them reached god-like status along with the pharao to the egyptian.
They are the main efort of a civilisation.
On the other end, WtC, Wall Street and the tall skyscrapers in NY are just a money machine, since the beginning. They were not created for pride or culture, but for money. Money. Money.
Wall Street is not even the first stock exchange of the planet, and for the biggest part of history the main stock exchange has been London's one. And before you had Bazaars, etc.
AFAIK, the skyscrapers were seen at the beginning as the NY respone to european cathedrals (US is not old enough to have old cathedrals) as "temples to wealth", but that's just American romance. In fact they were built after lack of space, tall in order to be ECONOMICALLY rewarding. Money. Money. ...
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drake
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Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Hold it.
Pyramids were built out of a way of thinking and believing.
The people which actually built them were NOT slaves, and the architect which devised them reached god-like status along with the pharao to the egyptian.
They are the main efort of a civilisation. |
Thinking and believing what? In some ridiculous god of the afterlife? The thousands of people that built it, built it for the good of the pharoah, not the country. The Pyramid had no function, other than to bury the royal families and to be looked at it in awe.
How do you know they werent built by slaves? No one knows for sure. In any case, it was built by workers, who worked for a living. They didn't do it because of some great ideal, they did it because it was a way to support themselves.
For the ancient world, the pyramids were an absolutely incredible structure. But what did it symbolize? A big huge gravestone for some mummies. Symobolically it was a show of the pharoahs power, not the civilization as a whole.
quote:
On the other end, WtC, Wall Street and the tall skyscrapers in NY are just a money machine, since the beginning. They were not created for pride or culture, but for money. Money. Money. |
Money which raises standards of living. Money which raises literacy. Money which helps cure disease. Money which enables people access to technology to better themselves and educate themselves.
It is about culture. Whether you like the culture it creates I don't know. But please, please do not discount the cultural value of something like the NYSE.
I take pride in the fact that I live in a country in which I can make a decent living. Wanting the best for ones family is a universally recognized thing. Working to get what one wants is also a universally recognized concept.
quote:
Wall Street is not even the first stock exchange of the planet, and for the biggest part of history the main stock exchange has been London's one. And before you had Bazaars, etc. |
Being the first doesnt mean being the best does it? Never before in the history of the world has the world economy been so dependent on one entity. Whether you want see it that way though.....
quote:
AFAIK, the skyscrapers were seen at the beginning as the NY respone to european cathedrals (US is not old enough to have old cathedrals) as "temples to wealth", but that's just American romance. In fact they were built after lack of space, tall in order to be ECONOMICALLY rewarding. Money. Money. ... |
I don't get what youre saying here yol. You're saying that skyscrapers in general are about money and greed? Well I hate to have to point it out, but America isnt the only place to have skyscrapers
Oh, and we have plenty of cathedrals over here as well. Just not the really old ones. Was there a point?
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zoom200
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Also, No japanese wonders?
Tokyo tower, MITI, Seikan Tunnel, even bullet trains????
why should MIT be a wonder, wouldm't it be covered uner the city improvement "Universitiy".
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drake
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Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Well, there has been argue on that matter,
but why couldn't the game include some
legendary mythical buildings (that might have
even excisted)?
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Like the Oracle?
Also, there werent things like Mikes chapel, Bachs cathedral, Leos workshop (well not in the game sense), shakespeares theatre and Marco Polos embassy. They're purely fictional entities.
So I guess my point is, that theres definetly room for a little fantasy in civ. Its based very loosely on historical information, so whats the harm?
And besides stories, the Hanging Gardens are almost mythical as well. The logistics are hard to explain and there is no real definitive evidence that they ever existed, besides from the legends.
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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by drake
Like the Oracle?
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The Oracle wonder is a bit complicated.
No source has stated what oracle is
in question. Most likely it's the oracle of Delfi
in the Parnassos mountains (mainland Greece).
The oracle of Delfi is a true; the remains of the
temple still excist and they are a tourist attraction,
that has attracted even me. 
quote:
Also, there werent things like Mikes chapel, Bachs cathedral, Leos workshop (well not in the game sense), shakespeares theatre and Marco Polos embassy. They're purely fictional entities.
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The names are pure imagination, but the
Michelangelo's Chapel is the Sixteener Chapel in Rome and
the Shake's theatre is the Globe Theatre
(see my alt WoW list).
quote:
So I guess my point is, that theres definetly room for a little fantasy in civ. Its based very loosely on historical information, so whats the harm?
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I agree with you. BTW, there Cure for Cancer WoW
in Civ II is also surreal, because until this day,
no cure for cancer has been found. But there's remark
on that in the WoW description (see Civilopedia).
quote:
And besides stories, the Hanging Gardens are almost mythical as well. The logistics are hard to explain and there is no real definitive evidence that they ever existed, besides from the legends.
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But the other of the Seven Great Wonders of the World
are true (expect the Colossus, because there's no evidence).
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CygnusZ
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quote:
Originally posted by drake
So do we have any real world examples of what bachs cathedral represents? How about Marco Polos embassy?
Any loose relations you might know of? |
Yeah, I can answer for Bach's Cathedral.
Bach was employed at Neue Kirche Church from 1703-1707. He composed a new piece every single week by mandate and in addition wrote his own works. The clergy of the area though suspected that Bach did not make music purely for the love of god. Eventually he left to work in Weimar in 1708-1717, where he composed his most famous pieces including the Goldberg Variations.
Now, Looking at some picture's I'd be tempted to say that Civilization has a little historical error. As far as I can tell Neue Kirche is not a cathedral. If anybody has a way to determine this I'm all ears.
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24-10-2001 00:37
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