30-10-2001 01:55									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dimension Sure, plenty of people like Rince and Wexu wouldn't care if 10,000,000 Americans were killed.

Too stupid to comment.

quote: Try to have a little respect for people's feelings. When was the last time 6,000 people were killed in your country for a cause they hadn't even heard of?

I said 'worldwide grief'. And the causes were no secret.

quote: My grandparents both worked in Hawaii and saw the bodies of people they knew flying through the air. Sure, it was 60 years ago, and only 1,200 people died on the U.S.S. Arizona, but I'm not going to go making jokes about it when they're around.

I really don't get your point, maybe it's a language problem.

quote: Stop fooling yourself. You're not superior to all the "fake" mourners. You're just cocky and out of touch with reality.

That's exactly my point. Things are not in proportion anymore. How can YOU define reality if you are so affected by the catastrophy?

And what's happening right now in America reminds me of the Third Reich, btw. Especially the ignorance and tabuization (?) of any criticism.

Greetings,

Rince

	30-10-2001 02:50									#32
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Well, I didn't mean for this to get so out of hand (but I guess I should have expected it), but for those of you who are against this addition to Civ III, let me state again that it would be an option; that is, if you don't want generic terrorists acts in your Civ game, just don't download the patch (Assuming Firaxis or any 3rd party makers even release it).

BTW, I am an American, so I have seen everything from an American's point of view. Let's try to avoid stereotypes about Americans and Europeans, shall we?

	30-10-2001 03:02									#33
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Elucidus,

Again a very good post!

	30-10-2001 03:22									#34
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Hey buddy,

I think that they, those that oppose the idea, are "offended" that such an idea was even mentioned. Of course I could be wrong. That is the kind of arogance and ignorance we could do without. I am sorry if anything I said offended you, as far as stereotypes.

Sadly with all of the Diablo II, and their ilk, that I've played I have met a lot of immature little "kids" and it is starting to leave a lasting impression. I have quite a few people I play with that are in that younger age. Some 16 year-olds, and one ten year-old that compose themselves like adults online, but they seem to be the exception.
Why does everything I type have to become a novel? Sorry guys I'll just stop here. I just get so caught up in the whole thing. The trend of immature people on the internet has been getting worse and worse every year.

Well, hasta la bye-bye

	30-10-2001 03:36									#35
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Yes, and many argue just for the sake of arguing.

It's pointless, so let's celebrate the Civ 3 release! I really thought i would envy those who already have it but instead i feel great.

Rince

	30-10-2001 03:52									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dimension Try to have a little respect for people's feelings. When was the last time 6,000 people were killed in your country for a cause they hadn't even heard of?

Look, you are getting annoying. I live closer to the events than most people, have more reason to be afraid than most. I want it in. Granted, I'm not from New York (not even American, but closer to New York than most of America is). But still.

Now listen, if you want me to have respect for feelings, I'll give you an example. The last time such a thing happened in Canada was...well...probably the War of 1812, when we were suddenly facing unprovoked attacks by the United States. Most Americans don't remember that war, those that do usually think Britain attacked them and they valiantly defended and - and this is a quote from the history channel - "essentially won a second war of independence". Umm...no. Actually, the threat was by America to surrender or be enslaved (not die, actually, literally enslaved).

It was a long time ago, yes. But the point still stands that that doesn't make me bitter against you at all. It makes me bitter against past events. I laugh when I heard the history channel change history in front of my very eyes. I didn't call them and demand that they remove all mention of all terrible events from their program.

I don't see how removing terrorism from civ3 helps anything.

That said, I don't think terrorism was ever in civ3, so it's a moot point.

	30-10-2001 04:00									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Rince Yes, and many argue just for the sake of arguing. It's pointless, so let's celebrate the Civ 3 release! I really thought i would envy those who already have it but instead i feel great. Rince

You're right. I just can't stop myself sometimes.

I'll probably stop by FedEx in the morning and skip the whole delivery thing.

And you know it is sad that some people can't be glad for others good fortune. I was glad to hear some people got it early, even though I wasn't one of them.

I had won something pretty big back in '98 and a co-worker, whom made her feelings well known, had to try and ruin it for me. Everyone else was happy for me, but not this lady. Well, I'm gonna go eat dinner. Have fun guys.

	30-10-2001 12:19									#38
	Re: Firaxis, how about releasing the terrorist options as a DLable "extra" Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Aendolin ..from your website? I see why you can't have it in the retail game, but why stop the people who really want it from having it? How can I wage a moral war against countries who commit unspeakable acts of horror if these acts aren't allowed? Alternately, what if I want to play a few games being the "bad guys"? Would it be possible to do this, even with an unofficial patch? Thanks for listening.

Again hmmm. There has been a lot posted here and it is hard for me to reply to all so I will try to respond generally.

Above is the original post by Aendolin. He understands why Firaxis hasn't included it in the retail release. What does that mean? Is he saying that it is insensitive to put it in the retail release?

He also goes on to say he wants 'unspeakable acts of horror' in the game so he can fight against but also it might be fun to do those acts on occasion.

Now in the current climate you can imagine how I interputed the unspeakable acts and that is what I'm calling insensitive which I stand by. The modelling of these 'unspeakable acts' in a game at this is IMO insensitive.

Others have posted about warfare etc - 'If you're against terrorism being included then you must be against warfare if not you're a hypocrite etc.'

What I am against is the modelling of the 'unspeakable acts' that Aendolin is refering to.

War is terrible - starvation is terrible. No one has said anything different. But it is how you represent it that counts. Do you want a game that allows you to see how many African children you can starve? Me nether. And I've never said that the 5000 people that died at the WTC are more important than one child who dies of starvation. Going back to my example of the Warrington bombing - on the same day a family of four was wiped out in a car crash. They didn't have sattelite TV vans parked for a week and half yet on one hand the death toll was higher.

As to warfare. I've never subscribed to the view 'I ain't going to study war no more.' It is very much part of our history and I'm sure the future. Learning about it is a good thing not bad. But what Aendolin said is that he wanted to be able to do those unspeakable acts. That ain't about learning and I find it insensitive.

	30-10-2001 13:48									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Rince And what's happening right now in America reminds me of the Third Reich, btw. Especially the ignorance and tabuization (?) of any criticism.

Wow. First you say all the "drama and grief" is fake, and now you compare America to the Third Reich?

Either you're the stupidest person alive, or you're just trying to upset and revolt everybody. It doesn't warrant a response.

	30-10-2001 14:12									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dimension Wow. First you say all the "drama and grief" is fake, and now you compare America to the Third Reich? Either you're the stupidest person alive, or you're just trying to upset and revolt everybody. It doesn't warrant a response.

I know a lot of people like you from past discussion on the net. I've learned that it is pointless to argue with them because they never really read what others write but just want to turn the 'discussion' into a certain direction.

CEEELLLEEEEBBRAAAATTTIOOOOOONNNNN!!!!!!


Rince

	30-10-2001 14:40									#41
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Everybody responding to me seems to be forgetting that I was saying that I would also prefer all the "terrorist" options be available in Civ3, at least in some sort of an optional patch or hidden switch.

I didn't mean to start making a big deal about New York. I've personally heard plenty about it, and it's good for people to get on with their lives, but there seem to be plenty people on here who are just trying to be rude.

Yeah, you can go on about how **** happens and you need to get over it, and that plenty of bad things have happened around the world, but what does that change?

For example, if your wife died and you were grieving, how would you feel if people were coming up to you saying, "Nobody feels sorry for you, people die all the time, so what makes your wife's death different?"

It's an ignorant way to look at things. Yes, there have been much greater tragedies, even in recent times. If you don't care about America fine, but don't go out of your way to be an ass about it. Just because thousands of people are dying around the world doesn't mean you can't feel bad about tragedy close to yourself. THIS IS COMMON SENSE PEOPLE.

You can't feel sorry for everybody, and I have a lot less sympathy than most. I have to admit that even as an American, I'm not terribly upset about the events in New York. Still, I go out of my way to respect those around me and give room to those who are grieving.

There's no need to get into a big debate about the details of New York. It's been discussed at length, and this really isn't the place for it. It was never my intent to tell anybody they should feel bad about any specific tragedy. I could care less. The only people I was criticizing were fools like Rince for saying ridiculous things like the grief is fake and comparing America to the Third Reich.

	30-10-2001 19:56									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Dimension The only people I was criticizing were fools like Rince for saying ridiculous things like the grief is fake and comparing America to the Third Reich.

I was criticizing the WORLDWIDE grief!!! I completely understand the grief of New Yorkers and Americans. But in many other countries the government was really overreacting. One of the swiss federal counselors said for example that 'today [Sep. 11] we are all americans'. And this is what i call hypocrisy.

Maybe i should have been more specific about the comparision between the Third Reich and America. What i find frightening is the new nationalism, putting american flags everywhere, enlisting for the army, suppressing critical voices and most importantly: go at a war which will probably kill more people than the Sep. 11th incident. But hey, they are just Afghanis. Wonder if our federal counselor will compare the swiss to the afghani people again....

I hope I could make my point a bit clearer, it's really hard to argue in a foreign language.

Let's be friends, Dimension.

Rince

	30-10-2001 20:48									#43
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One of the swiss federal counselors said for example that 'today [Sep. 11] we are all americans'.

I don't think he ment that literally, but I take it as yeah America was attacked, but the whole "west" is there target.

But back to the game...I think terrorism should be in the game. I don't see why people would bi+ch if its an option thats defaultly off, that way they don't have to ever see or think about it