08-11-2001 00:20									#31
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Boys, boys... this ranting is unwanted here, there are appropriate threads to prattle about Jingoism, anglosaxon imperialism and the likes. This thread exists for creative purposes.

Locutus

I wish to back Ecthelion's suggestion about the German UU - a Prussian rifleman would make more sense to me and it would put Germany into a different perspective. IMNSHO that is.

And... if you need any more helping hands with the writing of civilizations histories, sorting out leaders, cities etc. etc. I am into history and creative writing and I have many, many sources (and know where to find more).

I'd volunteer for the Byzantines but - frankly - I don't think they'l make it to the Apolyton pack, so I am open to suggestions.

	08-11-2001 15:22									#32
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quote: Originally posted by LoD Locutus: Sure, here's a smaller-sized version of Polish history: We appeared in 966. Immediately we started kicking everyone else's ass, until 1795, when we found our ass being kicked by Russia, Prussia and Austria. We finally kicked back in 1918, and soon after, in 1920, we kicked the Soviet ass. They returned the favor, with Nazi assistance, by kicking our ass in 1939. Then, after 1945 we found our asses under the Communist boot. Finally, we kicked the asses of our commies in 1989. In short, Polish history kicks ass.

quote: by oriel 94 My own ideal list of 'civilizations' is as follows (some of the names - marked '?' - are in draft form but they represent the essential idea). Some are modern, some are ancient, and some are both: West Europeans (French, Germans, Spaniards, Italians etc) ? East Europeans (mostly the modern slavic countries) ? Anglosphere (Americans, British, Canadians, Australians, NZers) ? Sub-Saharan Africans ? Latin Americans ? Arabs Chinese Indians Japanese Romans Greeks Persians Babylonians/Sumerians ? Hebrews/Jews/Israelites ? Egyptians Meso-Americans (Aztecs, Incas etc) ?

Yeap. It's what we used to mean as civilization.
One excuse:
I would differ European civ into: Celtic, Slavic, Latin and Germanic ones and add Greek of course.

	08-11-2001 20:51									#33
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quote: Locutus: Sure, here's a smaller-sized version of Polish history: We appeared in 966. Immediately we started kicking everyone else's ass, until 1795, when we found our ass being kicked by Russia, Prussia and Austria. We finally kicked back in 1918, and soon after, in 1920, we kicked the Soviet ass. They returned the favor, with Nazi assistance, by kicking our ass in 1939. Then, after 1945 we found our asses under the Communist boot. Finally, we kicked the asses of our commies in 1989. In short, Polish history kicks ass.

ok maybe i can help too with that "Polish project"...

	08-11-2001 21:12									#34
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Mankind: You can start by following this link .

Locutus: Could you provide with some info on how are the civ graphics layed out (actually sample files extremely welcome)?

LoD

	09-11-2001 19:02									#35
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El Awrence, Jaybee et al,
Well, I deliberately tried to add a bit of humour to the polls, as I hoped it would prevent the flame-warish situation that developed in Fresno's poll on the US (too many trolls and people with too much pride around here - no offense). I can assure you it wasn't my intention to insult anyone, I apologize if I did. That Mexico/Brazil remark was more intended to make fun of the arrogance of some Americans and other westerners than to insult any Latinos. I guess I could have formulated it more obviously and less disrespectful. Rest assured, I will refrain from using anymore humour in future polls (just don't accuse me of being boring ).

You can't really blame me though: one of the resaons why it's great to be Dutch is because 'You get to insult people and defend yourself by saying it's a national tradition.' (Just let me know if you want to hear the other 9 reasons )

PMLF,
Well, Europe and Asia were never really colonized on a large scale so I saw no point in mentioning them and Africa, well, what great civilization ever came out of colonial Africa? South Africa perhaps but that's already covered under the 'etc' of 'British colonies'... (and there's always the 'other' option).

Rosacrux (and all),
We'll definitely have a poll about a possible new German UU. Does anyone know any other units that could possibly serve as a German UU (always good to have more options)?

As far as other civs go, there's still a number of civs from the top 16 of the poll that don't have threads to discuss their properties and history. Thesen are the Koreans (they have a thread but it's more a flame war than a discussion of their properties, the useful info needs to be filtered from it and collected in a new thread), the Portuguese, the Ethiopians, the Inca (Wernazuma said he'd work something out but it has been a while). Help with this from you or anyone would be appreciated (BTW, those threads are mainly about discussing options, not about making decisions - yet).

LoD, I'm not sure what you mean. Could you refrase the question?

Guys,
I want to start some threads on UUs real soon so any graphics people can start working on them when they have the time (without having to wait for us endlessly to finally make some decisions). I propose the following polls but I'd like to know if any of you have ideas for more options (or if my options are a particularly bad idea):

Germans:
* keep the Panzer
* Prussian Riflemen (is that the name we want to go with?)
* other

Spanish:
* Spanish Galleon
* Tercios
* Conquistador
* other

Mongol:
* some sort of Siege Weapon
* Horse Archer
* Composite Bowman
* reuse the Rider and give the Chinese a different unit (FE Crossbowman)
* other

Chinese:
* keep the Rider
* keep the Rider but rename it
* (regular) Crossbowman
* Chu-Ko-Nu (repeating Crossbow)
* other

Arab:
* Dervish
* Xebec
* Mameluke
* other

Last edited by Locutus on 09-11-2001 at 19:08

	10-11-2001 01:53									#36
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Hey Locutus

The people that want to see
latin american countries
are winning.

	11-11-2001 02:51									#37
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quote: Does anyone know any other units that could possibly serve as a German UU (always good to have more options)?

Check out this thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=26028
Mark L suggests U-Boat, Grenadier, Teutonic Knight and Stuka.

	11-11-2001 19:00									#38
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LoD:

Yes, the Polish did a lot of good stuff, including at one point saving the whole of Europe (and I am not exaggerating) on Sept. 11th, 1683, when they booted the Muslim Armies out of Vienna. Recently I saw some of the armor that was worn when the Polish knights defeated the Muslim attack, and they are very interesting to see. There are long feathered wings that were stuck into the back of the armor to create the illusion that the knights were actually flying across the land like archangels to defeat the enemy.

	11-11-2001 19:03									#39
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What would the Arab Capital be? And who would be the leader? Suleiman? Saladin? Prince Fisel? Mohammed Ali? ;-)

	11-11-2001 19:22									#40
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locutus, i'm still waiting for the report of yours

	11-11-2001 22:11									#41
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Kublai,
I'm afraid not Kublai, they may get a lot of votes in that 'America' poll but the only poll that really counts is the Expansion Pack Civs one. I did some preliminary calculations yesterday and even all Latin American civs together don't have enough points to be included in the ExtraCivs Pack...

Gangerolf,
Thanks for the tip, great ideas

Markos,
Heh, It ain't my fault the site was down an entire day overloaded the days before that But you'll probably get your report later tonight, tomorrow at the very latest.

	12-11-2001 00:15									#42
	Turks (Ottomans) Suffering from ads?

characteristics: militaristic and religious
Head of state : Suleyman the Magnificent (title: Sultan)
Special Unit: Janizaries (an improved musketmen)


Cities: Istanbul (Constantinople), Edirne, Bursa, Konya, Ankara, Trabzon, Antakya, Erzurum, Van, etc...

	12-11-2001 00:18									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Well, I deliberately tried to add a bit of humour to the polls, as I hoped it would prevent the flame-warish situation that developed in Fresno's poll on the US (too many trolls and people with too much pride around here - no offense). I can assure you it wasn't my intention to insult anyone, I apologize if I did. That Mexico/Brazil remark was more intended to make fun of the arrogance of some Americans and other westerners than to insult any Latinos. I guess I could have formulated it more obviously and less disrespectful. Rest assured, I will refrain from using anymore humour in future polls (just don't accuse me of being boring ). * other

IMO, Brazil, Mexico and all Latin-America are a part of Western World, because most of the population speaks Europeans languages, are christians and their focus is the Euro/US culture.

	12-11-2001 20:23									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

Locutus: I was asking for the format and the layout of the civ-specific files, eg. how are the portraits stored (whether in a single file or several ones), in what graphic format, how are the unique unit sounds stored etc. Now I had received a general description of this from szoszon, however, a detailed list would still be much appreciated.
(note: of course my previous post contained a typo: "actually" should be "actual")

History Guy: Great to hear you recognise the critical importance of Polish forces during the battle of Vienna . BTW, the formation which wore the armor you described, the hussars, are currently winning in the poll for the unique unit of the Poles (90% of total votes have been casted on them, to be exact).

LoD

	13-11-2001 05:56									#45
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AFAIK, it'd be more appropriate to give arabs a pre-gunpowder UU, as their golden age was pre-gunpowder, at least for infantry.
I definitely feel Germany's UU should be from 18th-19th Centurys, or WWII, although the former is more leader-appropriate, as discussed on the other thread (Although I guess F-15s and Abe Lincoln don't go all that well together)

History Guy, out of curiosity, was that place you saw the Hussar armor the Sovietski Collection catalogue? I got one the other day and on the second or so page there's a picture of it.

I would vote against generic regional civs, as it would just feel too fake. Although I am for regional balance for a world map-type situation, although I'd be at a loss to really put my heart behind an Oceania-Polynesian one. But I think one or two Latin-American civs would be preferable to empty-space in South America (that is if it's ever possible to have real starting locations for civs ) I think Inca, and maybe Brazil or Argentina would be best.

I don't think it would be too bad (visually or in difficult) to import CTP I/II graphics into the game, they're the right type of units, and they already have all the important animations, and I believe the Civ3 graphics are kept in .flc movie files, right?

	13-11-2001 07:02									#46
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We need some fantasy Civs . Here are my suggestions

Decepticons
characteristics: militaristic and expansionist
Head of state : Megatron (title: Lord)
Special Unit: Seekers (equivalent to an F-15, fortifying them transforms them into a ground unit equal to a Tank)

Autobots
characteristics: industrious and religious
Head of state : Prime (title: Optimus)
Special Unit: Prime (a unit holding the matrix capable of completely destroying anything in one turn)

Federation
characteristics: scientific and industrious
Head of state : James T. Kirk (title: Admiral)
Special Unit: Intepid Class (the best air unit in the game)

Empire
characteristics: militaristic and expansionist
Head of state : Vader (title: Lord)
Special Unit: Storm Troopers (an improved infantryman, with no upkeep costs)

A-Team
characteristics: militaristic and industrious
Head of state : B.A. Barracus (title: Sucka)
Special Unit: A-Team Van (an improved mechanical infantry)


These would rock IMO

	13-11-2001 07:33									#47
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Currently, the top 16 are:

1. Spanish
2. Mongols
3. Arabs
4. Incans
5. Vikings
6. Turks/Ottomans
7. Phoenicians/Carthaginians
8. Mayans
9. Celts
10. Portuguese
11. Hebrew/Israelis
12. Dutch
13. Poles
14. Ethiopians/Aksumites
15. Koreans
16. Polynesians

Though I can't say I agree with all of them, I think it's time to start having everyone post what they think should be the leader/UU/CSU/Capital for each civ.

I don't exactly have the time to maintain a database, so can someone experienced in this sort of thing (e.g. Locutus) maintain a database of the civs somewhere? Include the 16 original and 15 xpack civs, with their attributes. MrBlud has just shown us a perfect example of an organized civ database .

	13-11-2001 08:39									#48
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Here's something for the Hebrews:

Hebrews:
Leader: Jesus (If Joan can lead France...)
Attributes: Religious and Commercial (Hoorah for the latter!)
Civ-specific Unit: False Messiah (Every few thousand years, they pop out a REAL Messiah, but he's completely worthless in combat)
Cities: Jerusalem, &c. &c.

Also, I see that the Dutch are included in the list right under the Hebrews. If the Dutch are put in, their leader should certainly be Anne Frank. In the grand tradition of Joan of Arc, I think she fits the "most memorable female" category for the Dutch. I know she was a German, but nobody remembers her time in Germany, so that's worthless.

	13-11-2001 09:14									#49
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Excellent idea!

Here is a list of cities originally made for Civ 2 (I was one of those who was always fiddling with the civs) but updated, revised and edited for this project. Accurate to the best of my knowledge, but put together more for playability. The list is compiled from various atlases of history and encyclopedia articles.

Notes: In some cases I have included more than one leader or civ with the same city set. It should be fairly obvious what's going on in the list. The different leaders are numbered and their different capitals indicated.

The cities are loosely in order of importance (starting with the capital) or size. Toward the end that breaks down a bit, no doubt, when things get a little random as it gets harder to tell what was important or big -- some of it is a judgment call, some is a guess, some is purely random, and some is personal bias or some other criterion (too many cities starting with 'T' in a row, for example). Certainly my ordering is not the "right" one or even the best, and I make no claim for it. No doubt I will change it myself as time goes on.

I did not indicate any characteristics of the leaders (civ specific abilities). It's just a bare list for now.

I combined the Mali and the Songhai (that's the "playability" thing I was talking about). In other words, the city list contains cities from both civs (but there was a lot of overlap anyways, particularly in the case of the more important cities). If this list is too small (17 cities) I could always add more cities from western Africa that the Mali or Songhai never got around to taking over... less accuracy, more playability...

Civs represented: Mongols, Mali/Songhai, Khmer, Ottoman Turks, and Safavid Persians. True, the Persians are already in there, but I prefer the post-Islamic Persians, as a matter of taste. Different city list too.

There is bound to be some controversy in any city list, because cities were in flux. Should Tabriz be a Mongol city (as in Civ 1&2) or a Persian city? I guess it depends. I put Bucharest, Sarajevo, and Belgrad in the Turkish list. I could take heat for that. But again, I make no claims for the list. Consider it a first draft for this project.

I'd also like to say that I don't see why we have to debate what civs will be in the pack. Why not make whatever people are interested in making? I mean, since we can pick 15 or so out of a very large pool, why not just make a bunch and then you pick whatever 15 you like? I personally would kick out the Iroquois and the Zulus, for example, but then I know not everyone would add the Mali and the Mongols, as I would (or replace the Ancient Persians with the Safavids).

Now I don't have the game yet, so I might be missing something here, but it seems to me we can all get what civs we want, provided enough interested people want to contribute towards making them. A civ is "worthy" if you want to play it or against it, IMHO (much as I dislike the inclusion of the Iroquois). Besides if we make a bunch of civs, more than 15, then we just have that much larger a pool of civs to draw from for scenarios. So if someone wants to make a "Confederate" civ, that will be useful for someone who wants to make a US Civil War scenario (or an alternative history, "what if the South won independence" type of scenario), even if you and I decide not to add it to the regular pool of civs you play with.

Lastly, I think it would be helpful if someone would post a cities.txt file from Civ2. We've got some good lists right there. I personally was unhappy with the Mongol list (too small, for one thing), but the Spanish, Viking, Inca, and Arab lists were pretty good.

I'll do some more work on this when I get a chance. Needless to say my interest in contributing would be making city lists and doing historical research.

Cheers.

Attachment: civs.txt
This has been downloaded 18 time(s).

	13-11-2001 09:20									#50
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Here's an idea for the Chinese UU: the junk. For those who don't like the rider. Arabs could have the dhow. Carthaginians get a war elephant, though with different stats from the Indian elephant (African elephants are different anyway).

	13-11-2001 10:37									#51
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy What would the Arab Capital be? And who would be the leader? Suleiman? Saladin? Prince Fisel? Mohammed Ali? ;-)

I'd vote for Mecca, and the leader being Mohammed. The majority of the Arab world is Muslim, as are it's leaders, making it appropriate, IMO.

Marc

	13-11-2001 10:43									#52
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quote: Originally posted by IncreduloDriver Here's something for the Hebrews: Hebrews: Leader: Jesus (If Joan can lead France...) Attributes: Religious and Commercial (Hoorah for the latter!) Civ-specific Unit: False Messiah (Every few thousand years, they pop out a REAL Messiah, but he's completely worthless in combat) Cities: Jerusalem, &c. &c.

Um. Wow. I'm not even Jewish, and *I'm* offended by that.

Marc

	13-11-2001 10:59									#53
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Though I can't say I agree with all of them, I think it's time to start having everyone post what they think should be the leader/UU/CSU/Capital for each civ. I don't exactly have the time to maintain a database, so can someone experienced in this sort of thing (e.g. Locutus) maintain a database of the civs somewhere? Include the 16 original and 15 xpack civs, with their attributes. MrBlud has just shown us a perfect example of an organized civ database .

Ok, here's my ideas, for what they're worth. I drew a complete blank on some of them.

Marc

	13-11-2001 19:13									#54
	Well, you lost my interest....... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Locutus While Gramphos and others (who actually have the game) are figuring out the exact number of civs we can add safely, we should start to determine if we're happy with the existing 16 civs. I know there are people on this forum (including yours truly) who would very much like to make some changes in those. We should decide if any changes are desired for this Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack (perhaps we should come up with a better name for it too, any thoughts?) and if so, which ones.

Any changes to existing game functionality should be done separately.

You are going to lose a lot of people if you start messing with the existing civs (myself included). There are several reasons:

1. Most of us are ok with what Firaxis has put in the game.
2. New comers that may otherwise be interested in expanding civs in the game will be put off if changes are made to the original product.
3. Whatever patches Firaxis eventually provides for the game will be based on the current setup of the civs (special units, names, etc.)

I think you're going off on an unwarranted tangent - the mandate set forth by Markos was to work on expanding the number of civs. Like I said, you've lost any help I would have provided (playtesting, design work for the Ethiopians...) if you're going to mess with the current civs.

	13-11-2001 19:36									#55
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Civilization III allows for 32 Civs. One of them must be the Barbarians, so that leaves 31. Currently, there are 16 in place, meaning we can add 15 other civilizations.

My 15 additions would be:

The Dutch
The Spanish
The Portugese
The Ottomans (or Turks)
The Indonesians
The Vikings (Norwegians/Swedish perhaps)
The Mongols
The Celts (I miss them from Civ2)
The Mayans
The Inca
The Aboriginals (Native Australians)
The Khmer (Large empire, covered Cambodja, Vietnam, Thailand, and much more)
The Irish
The Tibetians

Well thats 14, but there is 1 that i can't remember the name of.

The people that inhabit the islands between Austrialia and Hawai. Perhaps the Fijians or so, but I know there is a group out there that managed to build a flourising civilization. That would be my number 15.


How bout those?

	13-11-2001 20:18									#56
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For the Dutch:

Leader: Stadtholder William of Orange.
Capital: Amsterdam

Startting Techs: Alphabet & Cermonial Burial

This because of historical trade and "hunebeds" in Drenthe province, which are Ceremonial Burial grounds.

Starting Abilities: Commercial & Religious

This because of trade again, and the Lutherian Church as well as other Christian mainstreams were developed in the Religious Uprising in the 16th century. Maarten Luther was Dutch. Troughout the centuries the country formed as the south being Catholic, and the north Protestant, without a single war between those sides after the 16th century.

Special Unit: A Frigate with one more defence point and one more move. The English Man-O-War has one more offence point. The Dutch, managed to win several sea battles while being in the minority. This because they were skilled sailors, and were able to outmanouvre the enemy's ships, and therefore got their cannons facing the enemy earlier. Either way, I think the special unit should be a 17th/18th century Naval vessel, because the Golden Age of the Dutch was in this period, when they mastered trade all across the world, and the VOC shipping company was formed.

Color: Orange of course

Leaders: A few i can think of:

Maarten Tromp
Piet Heyn
Michiel de Ruyter
Willem Barentz
Peter Stuyvesandt

The first 4 were sailors (no kidding) and the last one was the first governer of New Amsterdam, now known as New York


The first DutchMod is already being done by Dimitry Gerards in the CivFanatics forum. I would say his settings and configuration would be the best to use for the Dutch. He has used the VOC Galleon as a special unit, and he is quite advanced in making the modpack. So also contact him for the Dutch stuff. He listed more leaders too, but i can't think of them right now

Check this link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...20&pagenumber=1

The DutchMod thread

	13-11-2001 22:50									#57
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quote: Originally posted by maartena Starting Abilities: Commercial & Religious

Sorry, mate, but "Religious" is probably the last trait I would consider giving to the Dutch. Have you been to Amsterdam lately?

IMHO, Dutch should be either Scientific or Industrious (in addition to Commercial, of course).

	13-11-2001 22:55									#58
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by maartena How bout those?

There is alread a voting thread here According to it, the most likely civ that will make it are:

1. Spanish 2577 151 7,8%
2. Mongols 2392 140 7,3%
3. Arab 2309 141 7,0%
4. Inca 2173 142 6,6%
5. Vikings 1928 122 5,9%
6. Turks/Ottomans 1874 124 5,7%
7. Phoenicians/Carthaginians 1308 90 4,0%
8. Maya 1209 89 3,7%
9. Celts 1090 76 3,3%
10. Portuguese 978 66 3,0%
11. Hebrew/Israelis 936 68 2,9%
12. Dutch 924 70 2,8%
13. Poles 833 52 2,5%
14. Ethiopians/Aksumites 816 53 2,5%
15. Koreans 656 40 2,0%

	13-11-2001 23:19									#59
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah With regard to Amerind tribes, there are 4 main groups to consider, from south to north: [1] The Kingdoms (Maya, Aztec, Inca) [2] The Pueblo tribes (Hopi, Zuni) [3] The Plains tribes (Sioux and many more) [4] The Woodland (River Valley) tribes (Iroquois, Algonquin)

Are you including groups like the Cherokee and Choctaw in #4? The so-called "five civilized tribes" of the US southeast were almost as advanced as the Iroquois.

But I can't think of a grouping to include them all. Any ideas?

	14-11-2001 00:26									#60
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by tmarcl I'd vote for Mecca, and the leader being Mohammed. The majority of the Arab world is Muslim, as are it's leader, making it appropriate, IMO. Marc

I prefer to take leaders from a Civ's golden age, so I'd rather use Saladin, as in Civ 2. And Mecca was an inconveneint capital from which to administer a large empire, so the capital was quickly moved to Damascus, and later to Baghdad. I vote for Saladin and Baghdad.