15-11-2001 07:50									#31
	I'm Torn on This One... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

While I think that we should have a degree of control in regards to our political situation that's as close to realistic as possible, I also think it's important that the game compensates for, as a poster whose post I can't locate right now put it, our muted sense of honour.

Cynics -- among who I have frequently been classified -- would argue that all politics is corrupt, self-interested, and completely lacking in ANY sense of honour. This is, however, if seriously and objectively considered, untrue. I will not deny that politicians and diplomats scheme, but they are also human, and collectively do, outside of Hollywood at least, have SOME sense of honour. If agreements are made, on some level, at some time, there is some intent to honour them.

In CivII I frequently made diplomatic agreements that I had NO intention of keeping. I didn't care about my reputation very much to at all, and between the Great Wall and the United Nations I could force peace whenever I wanted, and then break it whenever I wanted, with practical impunity. This was a lot of fun. This was unrealistic. This wasn't, simply put, the way civilization of the non-trademarked kind, worked.

There should be some limit to our ability to treat diplomacy, the art peace, as merely another tool of war. A realistic emphasis on peace is, after all, one of the best and most realistic changes in CivIII. While minor agreements -- simple peace treaties, for example -- should be relatively easy to break, agreements like Mutual Protection Pacts symbolize something more impressive. They represent, realistically, a long-term relationship between two civilizations, one that should not, indeed cannont in the eyes of the people of a country, be broken at the whimisical snap of the Emperor's fingers.

So, after all of that, beginning with the subject and ending here, I think I've managed to convince myself that any high-level diplomatic agreement such as a Mutual Protection Pact, SHOULD be binding. Our realistic control is inherent, really, in the power to decide when and with who we make such agreements.

	15-11-2001 08:20									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

> This happened to me once when many countries had MP's and I > didn't, one country started a war with me and within 5 turns
> most of the world was against me. Of course I got slaughtered. > (although defending against massive waves of enemies was
> fun for awhile)

And this is the problem with the way it works now. Mutual protection translates into mutual aggression. Honestly, there is very little difference between a MP and a military alliance the way it's currently implemented.

	15-11-2001 08:33									#33
	Peace brother... Support Apolyton

Asharak -

I know what you mean about being torn. I like having the MPP mean something. But I don't think this needs to be a zero sum gain between real MPPs and realpolitik. I think we can have both.

I don't like automatic declarations of war - I don't trust the AI opponents enough to be smart enough to use them properly. The "so don't make one" crowd wants us to just accept a system that kinda doesn't work. Let's make it better. Civ is all about options, and restricting options detracts from, not enhances, gameplay.

Venger

	16-11-2001 12:33									#34
	Any way to see how much time left in Pact? Tired of ads?

Is there any way that you can tell how much longer you have
in your Mutual Protection Pact? Or any trade/treaty agreements
that you have? I have looked all over, looked in the manual and
still cant find anything It would be nice to know how much longer i have in the pact, so that i can change governments etc if needed due to the war.

BlackOut

	16-11-2001 12:37									#35
	Re: Any way to see how much time left in Pact? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by BlackOut Is there any way that you can tell how much longer you have in your Mutual Protection Pact? Or any trade/treaty agreements that you have? I have looked all over, looked in the manual and still cant find anything It would be nice to know how much longer i have in the pact, so that i can change governments etc if needed due to the war. BlackOut

Yes, on the offer screen at the bottom there are two words. New and active (or something like active). Hit active and it will show all agreements your in at the moment and will show the time left on them. If there is no time them then they have gone past the 20 turns and you can get rid of them at any time by clicking on them then selecting "new".

	16-11-2001 17:52									#36
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

There needs to be some sort of options for a Mutual Protection Pact. This is a scenario that happened to me: I'm playing as the Americans. Somewhere around 1500, the Persians became really good friends. We signed a Mutual Protection Pact and started tag teaming the Russians.

In the late 1900's after a long long war with the Egyptians, we became friends and Cleopatra wanted an MPP. I granted her the MPP. At the turn of the Millenium in 2001, The Persians attacked the Egyptians. So I was sworn to protect the Egyptians, and declared war on the Persians!! Thats a load of crap!! 500 years of friendship and trade down the drain. I feel there should be an option when you have two MPPs.

The options I'd like to see are:

Declare War/Break Pact with Persians

Declare War/Break Pact with Egyptians


Its obvious that Breaking a Pact will cause a war, so why beat around the bush and just declare war..

	16-11-2001 18:05									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I just with is was a "mutual defence pact" and not a "mutual war pact." I have no problem with automatically going to war when my pactmate is attacked. I do have a problem when my pactmate sends an invasion force to another country, declares war, and then a defender counterattacks and triggers the treaty.

The trigger should be "another country declares war on one of us" and not "any unit attacks any of our units."