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Guynemer
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There you have it, Drake. The Constitution is being trampled and abused by those in power. Calling the government out on this is not unpatriotic. Blind support is.
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:16
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Well I'm on the side of Che, Frodo, Seeker, Guynemer, TMV, Wraith etc...
It is an erosion of civil liberties - maybe not yours, but someone's...
Like someone said about the RICO legislation, something that was put in place to combat a particular evil ended up being used for something completely different and altogether more sinister...
Though these three pages, those of us against this 'Patriot' act (am I the only one here who thinks this is a singularly unpatriotic act!!?) have given the rest of you plenty of examples of real or potential abuses of power! And yet you still seem to want to bury your heads and believe everything your government tells you
Maybe you refuse to believe that your government could be that bad or be tempted to abuse it's power - more likely you're just happy to keep your heads firmly planted in the sand...
Sure, you're *likely* to be safe if you're just one of the masses docilely chewing the cud of what's being fed to you by your government and not having any controversial views in the slightest, but what of those who do have opinions and sometimes question their government (which IMO is a healthy thing to do to keep them on their toes!), well they now run the risk of being banged away on some trumped up charge of 'subversive'/'terrorist' behaviour! They could even be arguing against this very measure, attempting to highlight to the population at large that these are indeed draconian laws - you guys said that if you felt your rights being restricted you would complain and the government would back down...
Well, surely that could be construed as subversive anti government behaviour...
Then where would you be!!?
You just don't see the problem (because you haven't truly thought it out to the end scenario), so you're happy with this particular act.
But what happens when an act is passed you're not happy about? Well, I guess you could complain - but by then it could be too late! You might be banged away with the same lack of rights as a terrorist, never to be seen again because you 'caused a problem' and they had the perfect right in the eyes of the law to 'remove' the problem...
Stop being a herd animal - think about it! Think about what you're losing!
We have a similar thing in this country - our dearly beloved Blair is actually quite the authoritarian! Yes, they're trying to sneak through compulsory ID cards here!!!
Imagine having to carry an ID card around everywhere you go - talk about police state! It's just another aspect of Big Brother trying to control our lives and keep tabs on where we are...
Worst of all, they'll be utterly pointless from a practical POV, as I'm sure the people they would be trying to catch or whatever would easily be able to obtain fakes etc...
As someone said, what happened to "We will not allow these terrorists to change our way of life in any way!"
What happened to that!?
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Guynemer
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Oden's story got me to thinking about poor Ralph Nader. Oden had her rights taken away due to her party affiliation. Not only was Nader the presidental candidate of that party, he is also of Arab heritage.
Hell, I bet we'd see Nader allowed into a Presidental debate before he's ever allowed to get on a plane again.
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
You people need to calm down- this if for non-citizens only. If you are a US citizen, you are guaranteed the right to a fair trial before a jury of your peers. |
So it's okay to jail--or worse--innocent non-citizens?
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Frodo
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of Asteroid B-612
May 1999
time: 00:16
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I don't think any of us are posting here against this legislation because we're worried about our own imminent futures. Obviously most of us here are not going to be counted as terrorists by the government. However, knowing that we won't be affected anytime soon doesn't mean that we can go home happy. It's still not right even if it's happening to someone far away, who we don't know, and whose imprisonment/death/detainment won't make a difference in our lives; and it should be protested. That's what justice is all about.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
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Coming late here... but, yeah it sucks, but I must contradict che for a second on saying the 70s having more civil liberties than today.
quote:
4th Amendment protections against unreasonable searches and seizures for one thing, in the name of the drug war. |
The 4th Amendment was already worthless in the 70s. The main damage occured in Terry v. Ohio in the 60s, under the Warren Court. That started the chain reaction. Precedent did it from there (not saying that precedent couldn't have been easily overturned, but...)
quote:
1st Amendment protections from religion (freedom of religion means freedom from other people's religions). |
That isn't what the Amendment meant. It prevented the state from proclaiming a religion. However, it most definetly is NOT a freedom from other beliefs. In fact, it is probably counter to that. Every person has a right to articulate their religious beliefs.
quote:
5th Amendment protections against cruel and unsual punishments. |
Death Penalty? One thing I shall agree with the USSC is that the Death Penalty isn't cruel and unusual, which was decided in the 70s, IIRC.
quote:
Constitutional right of habeus corpus severly limited. |
Before September 11th, I don't know if that is true.
quote:
Constitutional right to a fair trial and competitent legal representation limited. |
Since the 70s? If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Gideon v. Wainwright decided in the late 60s, and most of it hadn't been taken up until the late 70s (as court decisions seem to go... takes a while for the states to pick them up).
So, really erosion of civil liberties have been happening for quite a while, and it really isn't something that just came out of nowhere.
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Roland
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Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:16
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Stunning how many people have their nose so far up the ass that they don't smell the rat. You don't know how those "security" people think and get their way, I assume.
Lessee...
"These are extraordinary times", they say. So instead of checking what went wrong, what their shortcomings are, it's the simple "give us more power". Pretty much like other government agencies, who are usually limited to "give us more money", though.
The extraordinary measure is introduced with some limits. Maybe temporary, only terrorists, only foreigners... but apart from them being used as a model for the next "extraordinary" event (like domestic terrorism, anthrax scare maybe), they have this nice tendency of being far open to abuse.
Secrecy, good. Always nice to avoid control. Why do you think trials are (in various form) public ? Foreigner.. well, citizenship might be hard to establish. Terrorist... well, there's something crying for a faaaar reaching definition. But there's still a jury! Yeah great, who controls jury selection etc ?
If some other quotes are correct, this is nothing like the modern version of the bastille. "A military trial could also be held overseas... trial in the United States would be unsafe" - oh please, you can't establish safety in the US for a trial ? "Safe" is such a nice fuzzy word... "you have unfettered discretion'' - yeah great. "Do as we please".
And whoever touts the stupid "this is for terrorists" line should get caught up in the mills of the justice system. EVERYTHING there affects the guilty, but also the accused, and also the suspected. Now there's a fitting smiley.... 
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:16
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I think your a little late on this point MOBIUS:
1) Prevention of Terrorism Act of 1974, 1976
2) Criminal Justice Act of 1998
They seem oddly similar to the Patriot Act. I wonder where we got the idea from.  |
You're absolutely right Doc, The prevention of terrorism act was brought in in '74 and was supposed to have a 'sunset clause' built in for May '75... Well, guess what - we've still got it!
Also, since Blair has been in office we've had the Criminal Justice Act of 1998, the Football (Disorder) Act 2000 - which is perfectly usable against anyone, not just football fans! And finally, RIPA which I hadn't even heard about till I read the paper the other day to discover that it had already been enacted just last month!!!
I heard the government was thinking about doing stuff with the internet that broke civil liberties in a big way - but now it's out with barely any publicity, I doubt most of the population even knows it exists!
I don't like Blair - never have done! He's too much of a control freak and an authoritarian. He also has too much power because of our antiquated and undemocratic electoral system - he has a landslide majority from only picking up barely half of this countries' vote! Unfortunately he can get away with anything and there's nothing the opposition parties can do about it!
Anyway, enough of my ramblings - here's RIPA in all it's gory glory...
quote:
The long arm of the net
by Richard Longhurst
Ever had this feeling you're being watched? that's because you are. On 24 October, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) became law, giving the Government the power to snoop on all electronic communications - your e-mail, websites, on-line shopping, banking, newsgroups, everything.
Home Secretary David Blunkett has also introduced the Emergency Anti-Terrorism Bill, which would require internet service providers to record the e-mail addresses of everyone you communicate with for 12 months.
And it gets worse. The Home Office says the powers will not be restricted to dealing with national security issues, so the data could be used to investigate everything from parking fines to TV licence dodgers.
But if I've done nothing wrong, surely I have nothing to worry about?
Unfortunately, you have. The RIPA also includes powers to combat the use of encryption by criminals, the theory being that if the police can unscramble evildoers' messages, we won't get another 11 September. Under the Act, the police can demand any message is decrypted, regardless of whether the sender is suspected of a crime. So if you've scrambled a message and forgotten or lost the decryption key, you could face up to two years in jail.
Is there no defence?
There's no way of telling what's in an encrypted message without opening it, so the court will not know whether you're a villain or just plain dumb.
How will they intercept all these messages?
ISPs will have to install electronic eavesdropping equipment at their own expense - AOL Europe reckons it will have to store about 25 billion internet addresses every year. Some ISPs may have to shut down, while others will pass the cost to their customers in the form of higher prices.
So it's bad for business?
Yes. The British Chambers of Commerce say RIPA could costs British business £46 billion in the first five years.
Will the RIPA help stop terrorism?
The Government seems to think so, but no one else does. Terrorists are hardly going to take part in any Governmentapproved encryption scheme and would not surrender decryption keys that would reveal crucial evidence. The biggest losers are law-abiding net users - the RIPA compromises security and privacy.
Are the lawmakers doing anything good for us?
You could soon be getting less spam. The European Commission has proposed a ban on unsolicited commercial e-mail after figuring that it costs net users 10,000 million euros (about £6,200m) a year in wasted time and resources. The E-Privacy Directive Proposal was to have made it illegal to send junk mail without the recipient's prior consent - users would have to "opt in" to receive spam. As if anyone would do that. (yay!)
What do you mean "was"?
In the Committee on Citizens' Freedoms and Rights, Justice and Home Affairs report, an amendment favouring an "opt-out" was passed, allowing firms to send spam unless consumers asked not to receive it. Clearly, this contradicted the earlier decision.
How can I stop spam in the meantime?
Join the European Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail (EuroCAUCE), which wants to wrest control of your mailbox back from the spammers. And install an anti-spam program on your computer (details below).
What about cookies?
MEPs say cookies violate the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights. They want websites to make users give "explicit, prior consent" every time a cookie is used. Companies therefore wouldn't be able to use cookies to track every on-line move without you knowing, but you'd have to remember passwords and usernames for all the sites you visit.
Is that really necessary?
No. Cookies make it easier to shop on-line and get person-alised content. Consumers are protected by the 1998 Data Protection Act, which gives them the right to prevent their data being processed for direct marketing. If the data controllers don't comply with the Act, you can claim compensation for damages and distress. |
Well, as far as I'm concerned, the jury is out on cookies - but there's some pretty draconian stuff there!!! I'm will to bet the US has already/is about to spirit through the same kind of laws...
When you couple those with the Patriot Act - joe public could find him/herself in some deep doo-doo!
Suppose: A suspicious act occurs in your neighbourhood. The authorities need some leads so they cross reference all the local addresses with their web activity and e-mails, and start knocking on the doors of 'suspicious' people - people who may have innocently clicked on a dodgy or suspicious website once (Like Apolyton - crawling with 'Eurocoms' )... Next thing you know your ass is hauled over the coals of the 'Patriot' act and your entire life gets turned upside down and stuck under a very uncomfortable microscope while you're held indefinitely with your civil rights compromised...
I'm not gloating over the predicament the US finds herself in, because we're in the same boat here - all I'm saying is open your eyes to what is going on here!
Moral of the story: Never forget your passwords!
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15-11-2001 02:04
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