18-11-2001 08:41									#31
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I have been playing Civ III for about 10 days now, I it seems to be the best civ game out of the box that I have ever played.
That said, it is arguable as to whether that is because the AI is superior, or because Civ III is a smaller game in some areas than are the Ctp games.
Btw, the AI in the Ctp series is not inept, but rather the settings were quite poor in the shipped version. Ctp is a bigger game, with more features and variables. Unfortunately, it only takes a couple of unbalanced game components to mess up the "feel" of the game, which means it is much harder to keep those couple things of things from being messed up in a larger game.
Many things like air combat have been simplified for Civ III, which is fine by me if it adds to gameplay and is fairly realistic. I have not engaged in air combat yet, so I have not experienced the bugs that I have seen alluded to in the threads here. People have been noting the Civ 2 features missing from civ 3, which is very disappointing and confusing as to why they were omitted.
I have been reminded of why I loved the Public Works system in Ctp so much, and combat is far, far superior in the Ctp series, though Wouter can tell you of bugs which keep the AI from moving or forming armies properly at times.
OTOH, I love the new resources and luxuries models, and how they simulate the real world better than anything before. I think the corruption and some other gameplay issues simply need balancing. I hope that Firaxis will continue to support and improve civ 3 as they did with civ 2, and unlike Activision.
As far as modding, I have not started with Civ 3, but I think I will soon, since it is in greater need of it than I had anticipated. I feel sorry for all the scenario makers out there. Hopefully Firaxis will come out with a major patch before Christmas, but some things need work immediately to fight off the frustration I feel towards some parts of the game already.
Btw, for those of you still playing Ctp2, check out my sig.

	18-11-2001 09:23									#32
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Some people are comparing <em>Civ 3</em> out of the box with <em>CtP 2</em> with all the mods attached. This is an utterly silly notion. To wit:

<blockquote>
"My Ferrari is better than your Mustang."

"No it's not. It just looks like a Mustang on the outside. However I have ripped out all the guts and put a fusion reactor in it, plus this little anti-grav drive."

"..."
</blockquote>

Oh, and there is some self-proclaimed "IT student" going about blattering about programming issues. That's funny.

	18-11-2001 16:23									#33
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quote: "No it's not. It just looks like a Mustang on the outside. However I have ripped out all the guts and put a fusion reactor in it, plus this little anti-grav drive."

On behalf of the CTP2 modding community, thanks for the compliment.

	18-11-2001 16:47									#34
	Put an end to popups!

Wes,

quote: As far as modding, I have not started with Civ 3, but I think I will soon, since it is in greater need of it than I had anticipated

It won't be the same as working with CTP2, you know. There is no scripting language like SLIC at the moment and so far all we've been told is that is that they're going to come up with something that will be similar to the system used in Starcraft. As it happens, one of our brethren - player1 - has used StarEdit and is probably the only person who is famuliar with both it and SLIC. He told me that it's very user friendly but although you can activate predefined AI's, you can't really customize one of your own.

	18-11-2001 18:20									#35
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Oh come on, I played CtP2, thankfully I never bought the game but 'acquired' it. As they didn't release a demo I wanted to have a play first and thank goodness I did, I found it dreadful. Now I didn't have the patience to wait for mod packs and the like, I just deleted the thing off my hard drive...I was totally unimpressed, it just felt overloaded with stuff. I actually decided I preferred the worker based system over the PW based system in the end as well here, nice idea but I just didn't find it worked very well in practice...and nothing seemed intuitive, the underlying mechanics were way to complex so the game just seemed out of my control, I couldn't make long term planning or strategies effectively. I liked the combat system, that is the one piece of credit I will give the game.

There may be some things that they should have implemented in civ3 that were good in CtP2 (eg, national manager allowing much easier control over your nation) but these aren't issues of gameplay, where civ3 wins every time, they are just ease of operation, and ease of operation in any game are a must, but still peripheral to the gameplay IMO.

	20-11-2001 10:10									#36
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Thanks for the info, Peter. If you have a Virtual Basic editor that you, or someone else, can send me, I would appreciate it. I think that is what is needed to view the bic file.
My role in the Medpack was working with the text files. I came up with many of the ideas for the slic stuff, which Wouter and others brought to life.
Right now, I am subscribing to Monkspider's Balancer mod, which so far has addressed many of the game's shortcomings, and he is already getting feedback from Harlan and others. It is fine with me to let someone else do the work this time around, though I might start seeing what can be done as far as adding new advances, units, etc. to the game once the hackers here figure out how to do it, or until an offical expanded editor comes out.

	20-11-2001 14:10									#37
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blah, blah, blah, blah, blahblah


that above post has as much meaning as any post within this thread

	20-11-2001 14:55									#38
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You're a dirty rotten spammer, Dissident

	20-11-2001 21:29									#39
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I played CTPII, straight out of the box, it sucked. Tried some Mods, (almost all of them). It was better but it still wasn't great. (seemed sterile) Those guys did a heck of a job. But not awful isn't an acceptable goal.

The AI was CR+P, and some of the mods helped but just changed how you would take advantage of it. More aggressive but forgets to defend, etc.

But I am real dissapointed that CIVII didn't come with a more ctpII like combat system or at least the ability to stack units, even if it's just for movement purposes. When they started talking about armies I had hope, but alas. The interface for CTPII never clicked with me, but I did like the national manager. Armies in CIVIII are not the answer.


I don't think the AI in CIVIII is really that much better, but simple differences like lack of zoc and better targetting makes the AI APPEAR much better. (and much more challanging). If they iron out some things CIVIII has real great potential. (unfortunately, I'm convinced that they won't change it enough to make MP as viable as CIV II MP) The ability to mod the game is gonna have to be improved drastically.

Both games had features I like, but civ II and civIII are still on my hard drive, and CTPII is not. nough said.

RAH
Different strokes for different folks.

	20-11-2001 22:40									#40
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quote: Originally posted by rah I don't think the AI in CIVIII is really that much better, but simple differences like lack of zoc and better targetting makes the AI APPEAR much better. (and much more challanging

*note to self: try game of CtP2 with all ZOC removed*
Ain't modding great

quote: Different strokes for different folks.

True

	20-11-2001 22:59									#41
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If I get either CTP1 or 2, which should it be?

If I get one of Civ3, CIV2MGE, CTP1, CTP2 or SMAC, which should it be?

I'm experienced with Civ2.

	21-11-2001 00:11									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat *note to self: try game of CtP2 with all ZOC removed* Ain't modding great

If you do that, let me know how it works. I'm not sure with armies if it will have the same effect as making it look smarter. It's not like the civII AI throwing away unit after unit at that fortified unit in the mountains. The Army in CTPII takes out that position every time through sheer volume. But it would be interesting to see if they would move around the strong points to attack the weaker points. Those two characteristics must work in unison to make the AI look smarter. Especially with the auto advance into conquered square that you could avoid in civII by using the arrows to attack instead of the mouse. (I'm surprised that these reasonably simple things from a programming point have such an impact) Not as critical with CTP type armies.

Personally I don't like to see simple mods of games. A game should be playable out of the BOX. (or followed by a patch or two)

The more elaborate Mods for CTPII at least were better tested for balance an playability. Some were better than others. And at least with those, a lot of people were playing the same mods so you had someone to compare and discuss with. Because even though it was (generally) an SP game, playing in a vacuum isn't as much fun.

RAH

Note: I program a lot of the day and direct programmers the rest of the day. The last thing I want to do when I get home is program/mod. I'll leave that to others that enjoy it. If they do a good job...................like I said, I tried a lot of the CTPII mods.

	21-11-2001 03:47									#43
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quote: Originally posted by rah If you do that, let me know how it works. I'm not sure with armies if it will have the same effect as making it look smarter. It's not like the civII AI throwing away unit after unit at that fortified unit in the mountains. The Army in CTPII takes out that position every time through sheer volume. But it would be interesting to see if they would move around the strong points to attack the weaker points. Those two characteristics must work in unison to make the AI look smarter. Especially with the auto advance into conquered square that you could avoid in civII by using the arrows to attack instead of the mouse. (I'm surprised that these reasonably simple things from a programming point have such an impact) Not as critical with CTP type armies.

I don't know whether ZOC are directly coded into how the AI 'thinks' but I doubt it, as they can be removed (and dont exist for special units). The force matching the AI takes into account for every attack and defense should mean it will act more sensibly when faced with a choice, provided you give it enough time to think, and up the number of options it 'considers'. I will try that rah, thanks for the suggestion.

Ben

	21-11-2001 03:53									#44
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quote: Originally posted by GP If I get either CTP1 or 2, which should it be?

if you prefer multiplayer, CtP1. If you prefer scenarios, and mod-packs, with a larger variety of available gameplay types, go CtP2.
(The CtP1 AI is probably better, CtP2 does need mods to catch up)

quote: If I get one of Civ3, CIV2MGE, CTP1, CTP2 or SMAC, which should it be?

Civ3 - new game, join the crowd. fit it, be cool, whatever, I dont have it, I know nothing.
Civ2MGE - huh? Its out of date, join the 21st Century GP.
CtP1 - Active PBEM community, otherwise dead
CtP2 - Active modding community, otherwise dead
SMAC - Civ2 with different concept, worse interface, poo graphics. Sad mix of Civ and CtP, based on a stupid concept (IMO )

	21-11-2001 04:30									#45
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Sounds like Civ3 is the one to go for.

	21-11-2001 05:30									#46
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Yeah, George... get Civ3... and then SMAC. SMAC is a very fun game, with Social Engineering and vastly different factions and a great story.

	21-11-2001 13:56									#47
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George,

Forget the <em>Call to Power</em> series. I had the first one. The interface was terribly awkward. Too many units, with a number of them completely unbalancing (e.g. Slavers). Acctivision designed the whole thing differently from <em>Civ</em> just to be different. Look at all the Wonders in the Ancient Age. What, no Pyramids and no Great Wall?

The only things that were good were unit stacks and public works. PW wasn't that superior to the settler/worker system either.

	21-11-2001 18:37									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger George, Forget the <em>Call to Power</em> series. I had the first one.

But not the second.

quote: The interface was terribly awkward.

Ditto SMAC. Get used to it, its just different. Everything is easily accessible, and its not hard to use.

quote: Too many units, with a number of them completely unbalancing (e.g. Slavers).

Game balanced by mods (fusion drive in Mustang )

quote: Acctivision designed the whole thing differently from <em>Civ</em> just to be different. Look at all the Wonders in the Ancient Age. What, no Pyramids and no Great Wall?

Activision were avoiding copywrites. The pyramids are in CtP2, and is the great wall such a loss? You could add it back if you want. Editing wonders, how ingenious. Was that possible in Civ2?

quote: The only things that were good were unit stacks and public works. PW wasn't that superior to the settler/worker system either.

Pah, that mustang is crap. All it has is a fusion drive and a top speed of 800mph. But it looks crap, so lets not give it a test-drive.

	22-11-2001 22:34									#49
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So why is it a troll thread? Because he says the mod version of CTP2 is better then, the yet unpatched version of, Civ3? Well I happen to think the moded version of CTP2 is a fine game. Especially if you play it multiplayer.
If all you guys who have been knocking CTP2 for the last year would bother to install the patch and the Apolyton pack then you would find it is actually a very fun and addicting game. If the rest of you who say "I never play Multiplayer" would actually bother to *play* a game of multiplayer you would probably agree that it is more fun. It is certainly more social and more challenging.

	23-11-2001 23:31									#50
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quote: Originally posted by GP If I get either CTP1 or 2, which should it be? If I get one of Civ3, CIV2MGE, CTP1, CTP2 or SMAC, which should it be? I'm experienced with Civ2.

Personally, I like CTP2 better then CTP1 but that's just my choice.