25-11-2001 03:42									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: In any game you have to suspend some belief! Whilst I like the realism of the Civ Games you will never be able to achieve total truth in a tech tree. Chess is no less a game because Bishops can only move along the diagonals - so Civ 3 is no less a game because of some perceived anomalies.

Of course this is true- but there's absolutely no harm in trying to make it more accurate. No, the game's not fundamentally flawed, and I really don't perceive this as an anomaly- tech choices were something that I'd bet they spent a lot of time and deliberation, but since we have the opportunity to make the tree (and hence the game) more complex and more fun then why not?

	25-11-2001 05:34									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by TechWins The Printing Press wasn't even discovered until the Renaissance age by Gutenberg, yet you have it listed in the Ancient age. Chemistry also shouldn't be included in the Ancient era.

It seems I haven't made it clear that those two techs have been renamed to Military Organisation and Seafaring (I have yet to ADD a tech without the game crashing at some point ). They still had the old name on the pic because I wanted to remind myself where they came from. Sorry if that caused confusion.

Cian, I agree with you that Steel might not require Electricity but we are clearly taking about mass producing steel here (I mean it does go on battleships ). Hence the Corporation is needed too - these are big Steelworks we are talking about here.

I also like to thank everyone about their feedback on Polytheism/Monarchy/Code of Laws. I think the major problem with the tree is that it doesn't allow 'OR' prerequisites. Depending which part of the Earth history I look at different prerequisites for monarchy made better sense.

I also played my first game today with the new tree (up to industrial ages) and I at first sight it 'seems' quite balanced. I do need more medieval units though (Footsoldiers (Knights on foot)!!! - something to upgrade my Legions to!)

I truly hope Firaxis is going to release some 'extra' units for us to play with ... wishful thinking?

	25-11-2001 05:45									#33
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hmm ... Monarchy cannot be made the prereq of Feudalism because they are in different eras (one of the things I don't like about this is that you start from scratch at the start of every era so some really bizarre things can happen ... but that's the way it is)

Another reason why I don't want to have too many prerequisites for Monarchy and Republic is from a gameplay point of view. You want to get rid of Despotism. Fast! In my tree both are about 4 or 5 advances from the start which is ok (like it was in Civ2). If you require Republic to depend on Philosophy and Monarchy on Polytheism you can easily end up with 6-7 advances. Even though this doesn't seem that much of a difference, the time is crucial since by this stage your workers will be improving land that doesn't really give you an immediate bonuses (due to the -1 resource under Despotism)

	25-11-2001 06:28									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't have a big problem with the tech tree. "Empty techs" are good - the bronze age in particular needs a longer life. It was about 1/2 of "civilized" history in reality. To really do it right, though, we need editor control over total #turns & years/turn.

My dream editor would let you obsolete governments as well. The ancient Republic should disappear, to reappear in slightly revised form in the Enlightenment. To make the Middle Ages happen right, we need to obsolete everything but "Feudalism", and that needs to force some sort of local compartmentalization by city. Absolute Monarchy would arise next, then (modern) Republic, then Democracy, then Communism & Fascism (the later obsoleting & replacing Absolute Monarchy).

Cavalry became effective long before stirrups, just not dominant. The Macedonian system (Phillip TG/Alexander TG) used a "hammer & anvil" combined arms approach with the Phalanx as the anvil and (stirrupless) heavy cavalry as the anvil. Interestingly, Shaka Zulu independently invented the same system (as the "bull") using what was effectively low-tech legionaries (Impis, unarmored guys with big shields & sword-like short thrusting spears) for both the "hammer" ("horns") and "anvil" ("head").

The medieval unit you are looking for to represent infantry armored like knights is the Landsknechts (one guess what that means, zero guesses for you Deutchers in the peanut gallery). Another interesting tidbit, the brilliant ("Dark Ages" Eastern) Roman General Belesarius used his Cataphacti that way at Darus (about 900 years before Landsknechts) and caught the Persians by surprise (with that & other tricks) as they were conditioned to assume that foot soldiers were worthless low-moral low-born dregs fit only for manual labor and easy meat for a nobleman on horseback. That was a one-of-a-kind thing that should not be modelled in this sort of game, though.

However, you should not upgrade Legions to Landsknechts. To model what happened to Legions, what we need is an editor function to automatically "upgrade" select units upon achieving some tech, and "upgrade" legions to spearman with Monotheism. About the same time as the Roman Empire officially adopted Christianity, the Legions degraded to second-line troops and stirrup-equipped heavy cavalry ("Cataphracti" - for all practical purposes Civ3 Knights) became the new elite. There was no cause & effect relationaship between Christianity & the degradation of the legions, it just worked out that way, but that would be the way to model it if you want it to happen at the right point in the social/political development of the Roman Empire.

Anyway, taking the "Dark Ages" and the "High Medieval" period as collectively the Civ3 "Middle Ages", Legions would take a powder right at the beginning of the "Dark Ages" while Landsknechts wouldn't appear until late in the "High Medieval" (not long before effective gunpowder small arms). Pikemen & longbowmen & Crossbowmen would show up about the ame time - I'd make the stats for all four identical & let each Civ build the one most appropriate for historical color - English get Longbowmen, Germans get Landsknechts, Italians (i.e. Romans if still around) get Crossbowmen, Swiss (if they were a civ) get Pikemen, French get none of the above & hosed (Crecy, Agincourt). In between, heavy cavalry under whatever name should run roughshod over any infantry unit that is not fortified in a walled city or fortification terrain improvement (i.e. Castle). Then you have a true Midle Ages

Last edited by Barnacle Bill on 25-11-2001 at 06:34

	25-11-2001 06:33									#35
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Cian, I agree with you that Steel might not require Electricity but we are clearly taking about mass producing steel here (I mean it does go on battleships ). Hence the Corporation is needed too - these are big Steelworks we are talking about here.

True, but battleships cannot be built until Mass Production is involved- which has Electricity as a prereq.

I think the Steel advance is there to symbolize that it's now possible to be made using the Bessemer process.

However, I do feel that Combustion should have some tie to Replaceable Parts- or the Transport of Destroyer shouldn't be able to be built with Combustion.

quote: I truly hope Firaxis is going to release some 'extra' units for us to play with ... wishful thinking?

I doubt it- the way things seem to be heading is that at least one expansion will come out with a few more civs, units, and wonders. This isn't the way Civ games used to be made, yet Firaxis and Infogames seem to be tooling themselves towards more standard business practices which this is one of (look at AoK).

	25-11-2001 06:42									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

People go and post whilst I'm posting- *sigh*

quote: Another reason why I don't want to have too many prerequisites for Monarchy and Republic is from a gameplay point of view.

Yeah, that was my biggest cocern with Harlan's ideas concerning the addition of more prereqs for them.

quote: "Empty techs" are good

I agree, but not where they cause more problems then they are worth.

quote: My dream editor would let you obsolete governments as well. The ancient Republic should disappear, to reappear in slightly revised form in the Enlightenment. To make the Middle Ages happen right, we need to obsolete everything but "Feudalism", and that needs to force some sort of local compartmentalization by city. Absolute Monarchy would arise next, then (modern) Republic, then Democracy, then Communism & Fascism (the later obsoleting & replacing Absolute Monarchy).

Yeah, this would be wonderful- along with a laissez-faire or socialist democracy- one with lower war weariness and more happiness and the other that increases commerce.

Also, late-game govs would be damn cool- like a technocracy or true communist state- hell, even an anarchic utopia would be original

One thing though: "(the later obsoleting & replacing Absolute Monarchy). " I would think that an updated Dictatorship would be better- it wouldn't necessarily have the trappings of Fascism.

	25-11-2001 11:16									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: The Printing Press wasn't in the ancient age.

You twits. That wasn't printing press. He moved printing press to the ancient age and renamed it. It's military organization, look at the parenthetical comment. He's no fool.

	25-11-2001 11:58									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: You twits.

Yeah, way to be civil...

	25-11-2001 15:11									#39
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The main hindrance for the proper training of the anti-tank spearman was conditioning. That is, convincing the youth that his spear was in truth an effective weapon for disabling, and even destroying, a multi-ton, multi-million dollar armored vehicle. Once this aversion was overcome, the instruction in proper anti-tank spear tactics could follow...

Herodetus, The Formation of an Anti-tank Spearman


--- tersers sig. Probably the best piece of civ humor I've heard.

	25-11-2001 18:06									#40
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Ok, thanks for the feedback - here is my industrial ages tech tree. As you notice quite a few late advances are missing. They are now in the modern age. In particularly advanced flight now starts off the space flight branch there and the modern age is a bit more padded out (not JUST spaceship parts!!!)

I might move Mobilized Warfare back into the Industrial Ages at the very end (after Automobile) but I am not quite sure yet.

Notice that there is a 'new' chemistry which is required for Refining which I think is absolutely crucial to have.

As usual feedback is welcome

Attachment: tech3.jpg
This has been downloaded 91 time(s).

	25-11-2001 20:46									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

And while we are at it: The middle Ages. Note that Navigation should actually be an era advancement prerequisite.

Attachment: tech2.jpg
This has been downloaded 79 time(s).

	27-11-2001 20:09									#42
	Support Apolyton

Hey Araktreides, I really like what you have done to the technology tree. Have you done the modern times yet? Because they are really weird. Spaceflight without Computers ... yeah right! Satelites without miniaturization??? I guess they still have light bulbs up there that need to be changed!

Anyway, keep up the work! Are you going to release a mod for this?

	27-11-2001 22:58									#43
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yep, I might, but I want to see what the patch (Woohoo!!!) is like first and whether it will allow us to actually ADD new advancements (As opposed to renaming them and moving them about)

:LOL: re Satellites btw!