21-11-2001 06:35									#31
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I don't think alot of the people here understand what a hate crime is. Hate crimes are when the motive of the killer revolves around the victims race/sex/whatever.


This law - like all laws - can be misused and abused, which is what you seem to be equating it with. Situations where an "ordinary" crime is commited and just because the victim was a minority, it all of a sudden becomes a hate crime is an abuse of the law, and a fault in the legal system, not the law. (not in the principles of the law, anyways)


For example, a real hate crime would be along the lines of a gang of rednecks cruising around town, beating / killing every black person they saw.

	21-11-2001 06:37									#32
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A REAL hate crime involves killing someone because they are different than the killers. Period.

	21-11-2001 06:38									#33
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quote: Additionally Imran, what if it involved a person from Pakistan? Would you sing a different tune then? Uh huh. I believe you would. A double to you. What a hypocritical viewpoint for you to dare and think, much less express. You're better than that. Show it.

Thanks for putting words in my ****ing mouth! Mind reader now? Well, perhaps you better work on your skills.

Calling me a hypocrite by taking my words and THEN make up what I'd believe.

You are lower than scum.

And no, I wouldn't sing a different tune. There should be NO Hate Crimes! People have the freedom to hate, if they act upon it, then they should be prosecuted by the regular law, not some tack on law.

Any reason why I shouldn't put you on my ignore list, moron?

	21-11-2001 06:41									#34
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quote: I recall Imran being quite worried after 9-11 because of people targeting arab or "middle eastern looking" people. He was afraid of HATE. BLIND HATE. And now he is going to put up this line? He is a hypocrite! And then some.

There is a difference between fearing HATE and adding a frivoulous and unconstitutional law because of it!

Another to add to my ignore list (you are my first two, btw. Be proud ).

	21-11-2001 06:41									#35
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Hang Slowwhand! There are no hate crimes, a crime is a crime!

	21-11-2001 06:44									#36
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I think what we need is "repeatable crimes" laws, not "hate" crimes.

The reason that hate crimes carry a heavier sentence usually is because the offender is far more likely to offend again if it was a hate crime rather than a random act of violence.

Instead of calling it a "hate" crime, let's just give offences by offenders that are much more likely to repeat the crime a much, much stiffer sentence.

	21-11-2001 06:48									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I think what we need is "repeatable crimes" laws, not "hate" crimes. The reason that hate crimes carry a heavier sentence usually is because the offender is far more likely to offend again if it was a hate crime rather than a random act of violence. Instead of calling it a "hate" crime, let's just give offences by offenders that are much more likely to repeat the crime a much, much stiffer sentence.

Jon Miller

	21-11-2001 06:49									#38
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quote: There is a difference between fearing HATE and adding a frivoulous and unconstitutional law because of it!

Imran you are a schmuck. Seriously. I don't care if you put me on your ignore list. You want a society in which hate isnt tolerated, but then at the same time youre against laws that could protect minorities from hate crimes.

I am advocate the use of stronger laws against hate crimes, that would protect people (like you) who fear blind hate.

A redneck hick would think twice about taking out his homophobic rage on a gay man if he knew stiffer penalties were attached to it. Will it eradicate hate? Hell no. Will it help discourage it in society? I sure think so.

	21-11-2001 07:00									#39
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand So your point is if someone is beat to death, there must have been a reason for it? Oh puh-lease! This from a Vlad the Impaler dovotee?

(have you ever guessed Sloww that my name is Vlad, short for Vladimir or Vladislov?)

Well duh of course there is a reason, if you are saying its a hate crime then there is your reason. but I think too often people jump to a conclusion about why someone was killed.


"For example, a real hate crime would be along the lines of a gang of rednecks cruising around town, beating / killing every black person they saw."
So its a hate crime then every time a black man kills a white man too because Sloww defines a hate crime as" A REAL hate crime involves killing someone because they are different than the killers. Period." I guess this would also work for everytime a man killed a woman, drug dealer killed a cop, cop killed a drug dealer, etc etc Seems to me that every murder involves some hate.

Back to the topic at hand, I just got off the phone with my gf and she said its not really that big of deal there and NO ONE is sure of why the crime was committed. As a future resident of BC I will also withold my judgement until the proper investigation has been completed by the proper BC authorities.

	21-11-2001 07:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by vlad So its a hate crime then every time a black man kills a white man too because Sloww defines a hate crime as" A REAL hate crime involves killing someone because they are different than the killers. Period." I guess this would also work for everytime a man killed a woman, drug dealer killed a cop, cop killed a drug dealer, etc etc Seems to me that every murder involves some hate.

It's a hate crime when their motive to kill the person is solely because said person is of a particular race or sex. If a black man killed someone for being white, that is most deffinately a hate crime. If someone is the victim in a crime which has motive other then bigotry, and just happened to be of another race then the criminal, that is not a hate crime.

	21-11-2001 07:07									#41
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quote: Well duh of course there is a reason, if you are saying its a hate crime then there is your reason. but I think too often people jump to a conclusion about why someone was killed.

Thats the first thing I said and I got yelled at

I'm definetly with you vlad. I'm against hate crime....TRUE hate crime.....not some fabricated idea that every crime is hate based in the definition of the word we're using.

But just as there are cases that may appear as hate crimes (as this one might) and are in fact just "conventional" crimes, there ARE true hate crimes. ANd these crimes should be treated differently........

	21-11-2001 07:47									#42
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So let me get this straight, if I kill Imran or hell I just beat him up real good because of his political views I get a certain fine or sentence, but if I beat him senseless because he is a muslim then I get a harsher sentence??

	21-11-2001 07:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by vlad So let me get this straight, if I kill Imran or hell I just beat him up real good because of his political views I get a certain fine or sentence, but if I beat him senseless because he is a muslim then I get a harsher sentence??

If you have a predisposition for beating people because they are muslim, hell yes you should get a harsher sentence.

	21-11-2001 08:04									#44
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So what your really saying is if I have a predisposition to beating people because of their political views I should get a lighter sentence. I guess next time I beat Imran around I will say its for the political views, muslim muslim, hell I thought he was jewish

	21-11-2001 08:06									#45
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Asher, what if he has a predisposition to beating up Libertarians?

Say che got beaten up by Rabid Republicans, shouting "DIE COMMIE". Hate Crimes do NOTHING for that (and I don't think they should), isn't that a bit... well, discriminatory?

	21-11-2001 08:08									#46
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quote: Originally posted by vlad So what your really saying is if I have a predisposition to beating people because of their political views I should get a lighter sentence. I guess next time I beat Imran around I will say its for the political views, muslim muslim, hell I thought he was jewish

When did I say anything remotely like that?

I said if you're very, very likely to strike again, you should get a harsher punishment.

That's all.

If you're VERY likely to be a repeat offender, you get more slapped your way by the justice system.

	21-11-2001 08:10									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Asher, what if he has a predisposition to beating up Libertarians? Say che got beaten up by Rabid Republicans, shouting "DIE COMMIE". Hate Crimes do NOTHING for that (and I don't think they should), isn't that a bit... well, discriminatory?

I'm not talking about hate crimes at all.

If you quite clearly hate libertarians to the point of beating them up BECAUSE they are liberarians, you should get a harsher sentence than somebody who beat someone up randomly in a mugging.

Of course it's discriminatory, but so is your drinking age. Deal with it.

	21-11-2001 08:14									#48
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So you support the arbitrary drinking age? Just because there is an injustice, doesn't mean I have to deal with it.

Why should vlad get a harsher sentance because he hates Libertarians? If this is his second offense, then I can see a harsher sentance because he is a repeat offender. However, you are asking a judge and jury to predict the future. That the person WILL commit the crime again.

	21-11-2001 08:22									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So you support the arbitrary drinking age? Just because there is an injustice, doesn't mean I have to deal with it.

I don't think there should be a drinking age. That's the parent's responsibility. But back on topic...

quote: Why should vlad get a harsher sentance because he hates Libertarians?

Hold it.
He's not getting a harsher sentence because he hates libertarians, he's getting a harsher sentence because he BEATS people because he hates libertarians.
It's not a heat of the moment type thing, it's something he's much more likely to do in the future as opposed to someone who committed a random act of violence.

quote: If this is his second offense, then I can see a harsher sentance because he is a repeat offender. However, you are asking a judge and jury to predict the future. That the person WILL commit the crime again.

Well, if you beat someone on the sole purpose that you hate what they are and/or stand for, I think that pretty much drastically increases the chances of it happening again.

	21-11-2001 08:27									#50
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quote: It's not a heat of the moment type thing, it's something he's much more likely to do in the future as opposed to someone who committed a random act of violence.

Well, every crime that is not random falls under this. If a person beats up someone he doesn't like because he screwed him out of something is likely to beat him up again. Is that a hate crime?

	21-11-2001 08:29									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well, every crime that is not random falls under this. If a person beats up someone he doesn't like because he screwed him out of something is likely to beat him up again. Is that a hate crime?

I'm not talking about "hate crimes".

I'm talking about crimes that are made on the sole basis of something like..."I'm going to kill you because you're a Jew"
Or
"I'm going to kill you because you're Arab"

No provocation on the side of the victim, they are killed just because of what they are and/or stand for.

Crimes like that are highly likely to be repeated.

	21-11-2001 08:33									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's not a heat of the moment type thing, it's something he's much more likely to do in the future as opposed to someone who committed a random act of violence. Well, every crime that is not random falls under this. If a person beats up someone he doesn't like because he screwed him out of something is likely to beat him up again. Is that a hate crime?

Hating an individual is completely different then hating an entire group of people.

To answer your question: You kill/beat an individual because you hate them - that's it. You kill/beat a member of a group because you hate them - other members of the group are potential targets for future crimes.

	21-11-2001 09:00									#53
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand My ass. Wait until you're beat bloody by some thugs with a phobia about *white* elephants, then come talk to me. What a drone. Additionally Imran, what if it involved a person from Pakistan? Would you sing a different tune then? Uh huh. I believe you would. A double to you. What a hypocritical viewpoint for you to dare and think, much less express. You're better than that. Show it.

Your ass, is right!

You don't honestly think passing some kind of legislation is going to end hate do you? I think we should first pass a law agaisnt terrorists killing Americans since they hate both you and I. Certainly that would put an end to terrorism, no? It has worked so well with the drug war and all we might as well carry it over.

Lets see is a heroine addict more likely to use more heroine or is a hate crimer more like to commit more hate crimes?

I don't care who or why someone beats me up. I expect them to face justice regardless.

So much for blind justice, eh? Today she's emotionally involved, no?

This is laughable.

	21-11-2001 09:04									#54
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Imran


Why do you get so hostile against Slowwhand- it's just a discussion

Irini Imin (peace be on us)

	21-11-2001 09:24									#55
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Imran - RE: rabid Republicans beating up che because he's a dirty commie () - it would be labeled "terrorism" under the new laws and they'd be punished accordingly.

Is that the same thing as being additionally punished for a 'hate' crime?

	21-11-2001 09:27									#56
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants I don't care who or why someone beats me up. I expect them to face justice regardless. So much for blind justice, eh? Today she's emotionally involved, no? This is laughable.

Are you saying that motives should not be considered when bringing a criminal to justice?

	21-11-2001 09:36									#57
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quote: Originally posted by drake Imran you are a schmuck. Seriously. I don't care if you put me on your ignore list. You want a society in which hate isnt tolerated, but then at the same time youre against laws that could protect minorities from hate crimes. I am advocate the use of stronger laws against hate crimes, that would protect people (like you) who fear blind hate. A redneck hick would think twice about taking out his homophobic rage on a gay man if he knew stiffer penalties were attached to it. Will it eradicate hate? Hell no. Will it help discourage it in society? I sure think so.

Why don't we just adopt a code of laws that are subjective and pertain to each and every individual differently -- the WhiteElephants crimes, and the Drake crimes, etc.

I thought people like Imran, and you, and I are already protected against crime by several laws, what do we need more for? The answer is we don't, but it appeases the sexual and racial minority lobby. Look at this thing for what it actually is, not what you want it to be.

And again, how well has "the war on drugs" discouraged drug use?

I'm really digging this whole social engineering by means of legislation thing you're on to. Maybe we could get rid of poor people by making it a law for everyone to find a job and pay their bills? We might as well outlaw unhappiness while we are at it, no?

	21-11-2001 09:44									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Are you saying that motives should not be considered when bringing a criminal to justice?

I'm saying law should strive for some form of objectivity as opposed to the subjective whims of the populace at large at any given time. Meaning I believe that slavery was not justified at any point in history, yet by clinging to the subjective whims of the people slavery was justified for most of humankinds history.

Realistic? No. Idealistic? Yes.

I'm saying that if I kill someone for drug money or if I kill someone because it's Friday I should have the same sentence. If I kill someone in New York the sentence should be the same as if I kill someone in Los Angles.

Objective as opposed to subjective. Meaning it should never be OK to kill someone, but under the rule of subjectivity this has and could very well happen.

	21-11-2001 09:55									#59
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Hate crimes are stupid....in practice, all crimes are hate crimes.

All crimes are crimes and anybody who commits a crime like this should have the book thrown at them.

Yes the media jumps to conclusion about Hate crime crap. I havent really heard thing.......there still babbling about 9-11.

Infat.....wtf were did that come from? I doubt we would have even been talking about this if he was straight. Media doesnt report this..

	21-11-2001 10:21									#60
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quote: I'm talking about crimes that are made on the sole basis of something like..."I'm going to kill you because you're a Jew" Or "I'm going to kill you because you're Arab"

You are talking about hate crimes, Asher... or what hate crime legislation will cover.

quote: Hating an individual is completely different then hating an entire group of people. To answer your question: You kill/beat an individual because you hate them - that's it. You kill/beat a member of a group because you hate them - other members of the group are potential targets for future crimes.

If you beat a person, but don't kill them, then you probably will come back to beat them again. And what about gang warfare? That is against a group!

quote: RE: rabid Republicans beating up che because he's a dirty commie () - it would be labeled "terrorism" under the new laws and they'd be punished accordingly.

Are you kidding? Really? Under what act (not being as ass, just very curious). Are you refering to the should be junked Patriot Act, by any chance?

quote: I thought people like Imran, and you, and I are already protected against crime by several laws, what do we need more for? The answer is we don't, but it appeases the sexual and racial minority lobby. Look at this thing for what it actually is, not what you want it to be.

Bingo!

And yes, the law should have SOME objectivity. If it doesn't, then what is the point of law?