28-11-2001 19:55									#31
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy CyberAmazon, can you plz name one of your bugfree applications ? I'm curious !

A COMPLETELY bug-free application does not exist. Thus, there is a bunch of games (I'm not very into "business applicatio" ) that worked great from day one and had bugs practically invisible.

Starcraft
Brood War
Diablo 1 (good ol' Blizzard from the times before Diablo 2...)
90 % of games prior to 1993
Doom
Total Annihilation ( this game WAS a revolution)
Duke Nukem
99,9 % games on SMS, NES, Super NES, Megadrive, Playstation, Dreamcast, etc...

Well, there is a lot more. but it's just to show that nearly bug-free things exist.
Though I would like to say : Civ 3 in my opinion is nearly bug-free. It's rushed, not polished, but except the air superiority, I don't remember anything TECHNICAL bug. Design flaws are countless, but technical ones are not that numerous.

I would like to add something too : Fireaxis made a rushed production with a lot of design flaws, that's true. Now, calling them name and particularly "lazy", while I'm deeply convinced they probably spent all their time on Civ3 (remember Soren who said that all his personnal stuff was at the Fireaxis building), is not only resolving nothing, but is purely instulting them.
I DO agree that they should communicate a lot more with the fanbase, even to just say "the patch is in progress" or listing all the bugs/complaints they are aware of.
Though, the loud yelling about the patch while nobody still know WHAT is in it seems a little prematured.
I won't yell at Fireaxis, because perhaps that their patch will just correct all the grievances I have with the game.
I won't praise them either, because perhaps that the patch will be pure crap.
But until I know, I'll restraint myself about insulting them or kissing their butt, and I'll stick with only complaint about game flaws, lacks and things to improve ; i.e., I'll only talk about what has been DONE, and not things that are still under development.

	28-11-2001 20:50									#32
	Ummm, excuse me but... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Cian, you couldn't see that coming? like i say the game had no public beta testing, no demo and then at the last moment it became apparent the game had no MP...and the thought never crossed your mind that there may be gameplay issues? you're a second hand car salemans dream! neville chamberlian eat your heart out..

I had no idea that CivIII was even in developement until I saw it in the store. Call me uninformed but I don't spend a lot of time reading boards and such on the internet, I play Civ. When I see a product in a store, for sale, for money, particularly a Limited Edition I assume that that product has been throughly tested before it hits the shelf, PARTICULARLY A SID MIER GAME. Unfortunately this was not the case with CivIII. Also, every gaming magazine and website has given CivIII stellar reviews, they refer to the bugs in the game as minor inconvienences. I am a software developer and if I worked for Firaxis I'd be imbarrassed to tell anyone. So don't insult people for spending their hard earned money on a game that doesn't work properly because the developer released it without thoroughly testing it.

	28-11-2001 21:02									#33
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quote: Originally posted by number6 It's when the bugs are so obvious and surely could have been caught by play testing that I get upset. We are not talking minor bugs here.

Hate to break it to you but not all bugs that get caught in a beta test get fixed. I've been a beta tester on three different games (still on going in one) and its a fact of life that stuff doesnt get fixed just because it gets reported. Once its reported the company weighs if and when something gets fixed.

	28-11-2001 21:11									#34
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Another distinction between bugs are the type that are system specific, i.e. problems with NVidia, and those that are endemic, such as how air missions just plain don't function.

Once can excuse the occassional obtuse system specific bugs - it's hard to test so thoroughly as to guarantee compatability with every system. It's even okay to excuse the occassional obtuse gameplay bug - such as how to dupe items in Diablo (a wierd effect where a unique sequence of perfectly timed events can create copies of game items).

But I just CANNOT excuse bugs like air missions. These bugs are apparent to EVERYONE, on EVERY system. That this was not tested is inexcusable. I like many am tired of purchasing a license to participate in software betas, even if I do get a free upgrade to the final release with the release of a patch.

That said - Firaxis was in a really tough position, a deadline from what could be the most jackassed game publisher of all time, the loss of key members of the team, and high expectations for this game. I tend to think they feel bad about not having the game more polished and up to our expectations, and are banging out one hell of a patch. Dan's commentary at CivFanatics about alot of changes tells me this is there way of giving us what they really wanted to in the first place but couldn't due to many many constraints...

Venger

	28-11-2001 21:27									#35
	Re: My post on Civ Fanatics Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ghengis Brom Subject: Obviously Not Too Many Civer's Have Played Ultima Online I have, and I fully understand why Firaxis is not giving details on whats in the patch. As Dan stated, in process of developing software it sometimes necessary to change or entirely remove features which were planned or implemented in the beginning. Ultima Online is constantly releasing patches for their game and in the past had made a habit of promising or eluding to certain changes which never came to be. This did nothing but infuriate the player community. I'm just glad Firaxis announced they are working on the patch and gave a tenative release date. That's a lot better some other companies have done *cough* Origin *cough*. Me at home playing CivIII -------> "I am a above the law!"

But have you ever played Ultima 9?

I own it, but I can't play it with a system that well exceeds the listed system requirements. It boots between 10 seconds and 5 minutes of gameplay, EVERY TIME. They stopped patching after a couple of months, while the game was still royally screwed up.

	28-11-2001 21:28									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy [/SIZE] Pffff. What idiocy to expect Civ3 to be all-perfect bugwise from the V1.0.

No, the real idiocy is that people like you find it normal to pay just to be beta-testers. It's this kind of flaming fanboy that drags the quality down for the whole rest of us.

quote: How many of you remember that you could actually fortify fighters in open terrain in Civ2 before you patched it? Ooooops, guess the whiners forgot that even the mighty Civ2 wasn't spotless from the start, ey?

So your logic is "if other games got sold buggy before, it's ok to continue selling buggy games." Which is on par with saying "there have been frauds before, so frauds should be regarded as perfectly normal and legal." Or any other absurdity based solely on "but it's happened before, so it must be ok."

Well, no, it's still not OK. And if precedent is all that counts, maybe it's time some of us create a different precedent. Line suing the pants off the next company that releases a buggy game that needs a patch.

Don't get me wrong. This is not about Civ3, which actually works pretty well compared to other titles, it's about the whole "it's ok to pay for a non-functional product" mentality. No matter how buggy a game -- and I can think of a few which were buggy to the point of being totally unplayable -- there WILL be flaming fanboys who try to defend the Sacred Right To Release Buggy Games (TM). And I've had it up to here with that kind of an idiocy.

	28-11-2001 21:35									#37
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quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon I, of course, base my statement on the fact that I have plenty of bug-free software sitting on my computer. CYBERAmazon

Define "plenty". Now describe the software: are there games? Are they 40 years old? Also, please note that almost all computers come with things like Microsoft Word and others, which have had known bugs for YEARS (the famous Word memory leak comes to mind).

Bug free software...perhaps we might have one-page DOS console programs written in BASIC.

Where do we work now? Hmmm?

I'm pretty sure that any commercial product after say...1995 has it's share of bugs.

If you tell true, I stand corrected, but methinks you don't know about bugs that exist there. Even major ones.

Hmm...who else might not have known about bugs in software they had?

	28-11-2001 21:47									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Your.Master Define "plenty". Now describe the software: are there games? Are they 40 years old?

Look the list I posted before. Which is FAR to be complete.

quote: Also, please note that almost all computers come with things like Microsoft Word and others, which have had known bugs for YEARS (the famous Word memory leak comes to mind).

Well, there is a difference : you don't pay for Microsoft products

quote: Bug free software...perhaps we might have one-page DOS console programs written in BASIC. Where do we work now? Hmmm? I'm pretty sure that any commercial product after say...1995 has it's share of bugs. If you tell true, I stand corrected, but methinks you don't know about bugs that exist there. Even major ones. Hmm...who else might not have known about bugs in software they had?

I think that a LOT of Playstation games did not have any bugs. I know that's helped a lot because Playstation is a single machine and that there is never a compatibility problem, but I think it's even more because you CAN'T say "well we'll do a patch", then you have to get rid of the bugs before you can launch the game.

	28-11-2001 21:53									#39
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there was a whole load of patches for civ2 that corrected stuff like air superiority and corruption gameplay issues that people are slagging civ3 off for. i could copy'n'paste the patch history but it's quite a long text file, don't get me wrong civ2 is the best game ever IMHO but to suggest it game out bug-free is well,the words, glasses, rose and tinted spring to mind!

	28-11-2001 21:56									#40
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also when does a playstation game get anaylsed and disected over the internet like a top PC strategy game?

	28-11-2001 22:05									#41
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There actually have been Playstation games with bugs.. and since they are console games you just have to cringe and make sure you don't do it again, some PS games I can get to crash everytime just by doing a few simple steps, but it'll never be patched because its a Playstation game and they can't just do that.

Often times there is very questionable AI that can be taken advantage of in console games... this is the kind of thing that could be patched in a PC game, but in a console game you wouldn't have a chance of getting it patched.

That said the need to avoid patches for console games is why you'll more often see a console game delayed and held back, rather than a PC game. Unfortunately with a PC game the developers/publishers can say that's ok, let it go, we can patch it.. while the console game publishers have to hold on since they can't just patch it.

	28-11-2001 23:38									#42
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Just read through that Civfanatics thread, and I my first thoughts are sympathies to Dan. I thought that some Apolyton regular posters were hard on Firaxis until I read this.

Dan, come back to Apolyton where your efforts are appreciated, (right Yin?)

JimMac

	29-11-2001 00:47									#43
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Wow. This is a really touchy issue for some people...

It IS a VIDEO GAME.

get over it.

	29-11-2001 01:01									#44
	Increase Your PM Length

Venger:

quote: But I just CANNOT excuse bugs like air missions. These bugs are apparent to EVERYONE, on EVERY system. That this was not tested is inexcusable. I like many am tired of purchasing a license to participate in software betas, even if I do get a free upgrade to the final release with the release of a patch.

I was all set to fire off a salvo about how a man who CANNOT excuse a failing in someone else ought not to excuse one in himself either — you know, the ol' beam in your eye, speck in mine thing — that is, until I saw this:

quote: That said - Firaxis was in a really tough position, a deadline from what could be the most jackassed game publisher of all time, the loss of key members of the team, and high expectations for this game. I tend to think they feel bad about not having the game more polished and up to our expectations, and are banging out one hell of a patch. Dan's commentary at CivFanatics about alot of changes tells me this is [their] way of giving us what they really wanted to in the first place but couldn't due to many many constraints...

I appreciate that. Thank you.

	29-11-2001 03:39									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever there was a whole load of patches for civ2 that corrected stuff like air superiority and corruption gameplay issues that people are slagging civ3 off for. i could copy'n'paste the patch history but it's quite a long text file, don't get me wrong civ2 is the best game ever IMHO but to suggest it game out bug-free is well,the words, glasses, rose and tinted spring to mind!

Or and I'm leaning towards this given the way people are posting like spoilt brats - people who think Civ2 was bug free are too young to have bought the original Civ2 game, come to think of it some of them still haven't grown up.

Where I work we are constantly arguing with users about "thats not a bug, thats how you wanted it to work" e.g corruption. Likewise now and again we have to say "Yup thats a bug we'll fix that in a patch" e.g. air superiority, but its only after the patch is tested and packaged for release will we tell the users which bugs/features have been addressed in this specific patch.

Then theres the issue of priority just because you think or even the small (compared to total sales) but vocal Apolyton population think somethings are critical the larger buying population might not e.g. speed on huge maps with 16 civs.

Then there is also the "problem" that a sizeable portion of buyers won't even have had a problem - just like me in fact, Civ3 works a treat - first time, every time.

	29-11-2001 03:59									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yin its not that were annoying ..... were just demanding.....

as for the game...there are great concepts, but most of these r not implemented to make them work to their full capabilities

the air superiority bug isn't about a bug free game...its about them telling us they playtested the game when obviously they didn't . There are not alot of modern units to use so i fail to understand how this one slipped through the cracks....

the problem with releasing the game without beta testing is that there will only be so many patches....don't beta tests usually last for quite awhile.... if this is so then what we deem to be our first patch would have already been fixed....

instead our first patch will fix some things..... and then there will still be issues...and who really knows how long firaxis will support the game for.....

BETA tests should be mandatory...or at the very least a demo.....

its been 10yrs since the greatest game ever was launched (well the concept anyways) and i feel as though firaxis has showed their immaturity as a co. by releasing a game so horrible riddled with exploits and bugs.... i expected this from Activision not the living legen SID......

That aside..i too wait for a patch which may correct a few things and hopefully balance a too easy game with the civilization moniker....

	29-11-2001 04:13									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Civ 3 is hardly full of bugs. Have any of you played a truly bugged game on first release?

I have had only one crash after more than 20 hours of playing time, and that was when I inadvertently opened the editor at the same time that civ 3 was running.

The editor may be full of bugs, but I have never used it so I wouldnt know

But as Akka le Vil said, with an unmodified civ 3 there are very few technical bugs.

	29-11-2001 04:28									#48
	Increase Your PM Length

I had no idea that CivIII was even in developement until I saw it in the store. Call me uninformed but I don't spend a lot of time reading boards and such on the internet, I play Civ. When I see a product in a store, for sale, for money, particularly a Limited Edition I assume that that product has been throughly tested before it hits the shelf, PARTICULARLY A SID MIER GAME. Unfortunately this was not the case with CivIII. Also, every gaming magazine and website has given CivIII stellar reviews, they refer to the bugs in the game as minor inconvienences. I am a software developer and if I worked for Firaxis I'd be imbarrassed to tell anyone. So don't insult people for spending their hard earned money on a game that doesn't work properly because the developer released it without thoroughly testing it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


...er ok, you're uninformed! you don't have to have been a 24/7 internet nerd to have heard Civ3 was in developement, 10 mins digging on this site prior to purchase would have given you ample evidence that the game is still a glorified beta!

magazines and web sites get less than a week (if they are lucky) playing the game on which to base their reviews, this may be enough for a FPS but for a strategy game like Civ3 it's woefully inadequate, instead of concentrating on finely balanced game play issues or problems in the end game, the reviews will focus on immediate stuff such as graphics, sound etc due to time constriants, which are of secondary importance in a game like Civ3, but, of course, as a software developer you know all this!!

..and you bought the LE?

	29-11-2001 06:10									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon Obviously you dont work in the software industry. Bugs are a fact of life, like death and taxes. You can't ever get rid of all the bugs, its impossible because human beings are fallible. POPPYCOCK. If I had an employee with that attitude, there would be an open door waiting and s/he'd have a boot in the arse to send him/her out said door. CYBERAmazon

You sir, in this very statement have demonstrated that you have never in your life written a piece of software. You are in no way in a postion to make a statement like that. Period.

quote: I, of course, base my statement on the fact that I have plenty of bug-free software sitting on my computer.

The Internet browser you are using at to read this message in all likelyhood has over a hundred of bugs. Bug-free software _DOES NOT EXIST_

	29-11-2001 07:05									#50
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http://www.avault.com/articles/geta...=jmorris&page=1

Jeff

	29-11-2001 07:30									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You'd think that big gaming companies would learn to do outside beta testing.

I play a niche game, put out by a two man team. Every new version goes to outside beta testing ASAP, where we experienced users beat the hell out of it, find nearly all the bugs, and report them. They fix them, we retest, and so on until it works. THEN they release it.

Guess what? Doing it this way, there are no blatant or showstopping bugs when they release a new version of the game, plus the design team gets direct and immediate feedback from their most experienced users. Heck, one time I posted a bug report online and saw it fixed two hours later. They listen to their testers and we see our ideas go directly into the game.

Plus they DO announce what will be out in the next version/patch. In public. With screenshots. They aren't afraid that perhaps they can't make things work.

The care about their customers, and they care about customer input, and they care about customer satisfaction.

Don't you wish that some other game companies did things this way?

	29-11-2001 07:33									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS http://www.avault.com/articles/geta...=jmorris&page=1 Jeff

Come on Jeff, we get so little feedback these days from Firaxis, if you've got time to be here, ignore this type of thread and address the ones where we need input from Firaxis on game questions...the patch will speak for itself on threads like this...

Venger

	29-11-2001 07:38									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Bug-free software _DOES NOT EXIST_

I agree to this statement, though I do remember programming Pascal in High school, the only way to get a %100 was to write a BUG FREE program...

Now programming Civ3 in Pascal is a freakin' joke. We all know that. I'm just sayin' that THEORETICALLY, with unlimited resources, a bug free game can exist.

	29-11-2001 07:45									#54
	Inflate your Upload Space

"Obviously you dont work in the software industry. Bugs are a fact of life, like death and taxes. You can't ever get rid of all the bugs, its impossible because human beings are fallible."

Nonsense. It is humanly possible to produce perfect code. I have seen it done, and I have done it myself. It takes talent, dedication, focus, testing and a committment to excellence - but it CAN be done.

"POPPYCOCK. If I had an employee with that attitude, there would be an open door waiting and s/he'd have a boot in the arse to send him/her out said door."

Agreed. The employee you want is one who is committed to the goal of producing bug-free software. The employee you don't want is the one who thinks that buggy software is acceptable.

"You sir, in this very statement have demonstrated that you have never in your life written a piece of software. You are in no way in a postion to make a statement like that. Period."

Ahem. I have written software, in about 9 different languages. I have written DRIVERS - heck, you might even be using one that I wrote. I have run a big website. And I agree with him. Do you want to tell me that I am not a position to make a statement like that? I hope not, because I will laugh at you.

Bug-free software can be written; it's been done. At the very LEAST it can be what you constantly strive for. Anyone with the attitude that bugs are not only inevitable but acceptable is striving not for excellence but for mediocrity.

And that is just what they will get: mediocrity.

	29-11-2001 07:52									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Bug free software is indeed possible - but with increasing complexity comes greater chances of something unforseen in the system occurring. Anything made by humans can contain errors.

However, that does not mean they SHOULD contain errors, or that they should be considered finished products until they are bug-free. Every device can have defects or errors, it's bringing that product to market and selling it with known defects that is an offensive proposition.

And as these gentlemen have said, it's possible to release a program that is so close to bug free that those issues that do arise are indeed obtuse and don't affect gameplay but in the most extreme circumstances...that's what QA is for.

I'd also fire somebody who thought a buggy product was indeed a suitable one for release...

Venger

	29-11-2001 08:06									#56
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

;

Last edited by reds4ever on 29-11-2001 at 08:12

	29-11-2001 11:23									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Malleus Dei Nonsense. It is humanly possible to produce perfect code. I have seen it done, and I have done it myself. It takes talent, dedication, focus, testing and a committment to excellence - but it CAN be done.

With regards to an application like Civ3, you couldn't be more wrong.

As a career software developer myself, I concur that bug-free software is possible. However, the requirements for any commercial software application are going to be a moving target. For this reason, Civ3 will never be 'perfect'. Just look at the threads already requesting changes for Civ4!

Bugs have to be evaluated based on their severity, scope and impact to the bottom line. Economics dictate that some will never be addressed. I've developed on mainframes, Unix and Windows platforms, and it's all the same. The time and cost of testing and debugging software to 'perfection' would make the software obsolete long before it reached the market.

From my experience, Civ3 is above-average in software quality. Better than Civ2, that's for sure. The biggest problems in the game involve gameplay issues and missing functionality, not software bugs.

	29-11-2001 12:05									#58
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Perfection is a silly term to begin with. Who said perfection? I'm talking professionalism and competence. And Firaxis ain't got much.

	29-11-2001 12:21									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Venger Bug free software is indeed possible

Yeah, maybe the calculator program that comes w/ windows.

I'm not happy that it has bugs, but I(and I'm sure many other people) would rather have got the game when we did and download any patch for free when its out. If its not free then its a whole new ball game.

	29-11-2001 12:23									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Venger I'd also fire somebody who thought a buggy product was indeed a suitable one for release...

I'm glad you don't have Bill Gates job...