05-12-2001 09:10									#31
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FIRAXIS DESIGNER'S NOTES

"...So we sat down and really looked at the issue: Could we make Civ3 as good as our PR department was already hyping it to be? After an independent study by the consultants at Bendover and Sons, they gave us some disturbing news.

As it turns out, making a great game would take 3 things: 1) Money 2) Time and 3) Talent. We simply had no idea that was true.

What was worse, looking around the office, a sinking feeling hit me. We had none of those! Turning to the last page of the Bendover Report, there it was in black and white. The only answer:

'Release garbage in a box. Shrink wrap mediocrity. False advertise and then backpedal. Feign greatness and deliver incompetence.'

So that's what we decided to do! Such a plan would take very little money, time or talent -- which suited us just fine. Worked like a charm. Any idea how many LE's we've sold alone!? Oh, the good folks at Bendover told us there'd be talks of lawsuits, but since gamers are little more than the pig crap fueling a mighty industry, it will just make me laugh. In fact, my pals at Infogrames told me in confidentiality that they'll actually SUE A GAMER!

Ha! Ha! Ha! Can't wait to see that. God, I wish I could just annihilate this pesky gamers altogether. If there's one thing I want to say in these notes, it's that:

The gaming industry would be much better off without the gamers.

There you have it. The way we designed Civ3"

--Firaxis

	05-12-2001 09:57									#32
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Okay, no matter what anybody says about Yin - that was funny.
He probably meant every word of it but it was funny anyway.
Nice one Yin.

	05-12-2001 11:07									#33
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 BTW can we get the LE in other countries except USA and Canada? Anyone knows?

why would anyone want it? for a tin and some bits of cardboard? the only reason i'm not *****ing and moaning about how i got ripped-off is that i probably would've wasted the $20 bucks anyway.


Caveat Emptor and good luck LaRusso

	05-12-2001 13:25									#34
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Do you have consumer protection laws in the States that could be invoked? This looks like a bait-and-switch scam. Maybe someone could investigate laying a charge?

I'm in Europe. I know a fair bit about American civil procedure but I could not possibly orchestrate all that. It has to be American Apolytoner practising law

	05-12-2001 13:39									#35
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 WEEEEE ARE THE CHAMPIONS MY FRIEEEEND AND WEEEEEE'LL KEEP ON FIGHTING 'TILL THE EEEND Go LaRusso (I provide moral support). BTW can we get the LE in other countries except USA and Canada? Anyone knows?

Yep, at least in HK. But you can have whatever u want in HK anyway. We had both the copy version (3 US $) and the LE in shops next to one another. I do not know how they got it but they got it. I bought the LE and I definitely regret it. Even the manual is basically smalltalk constantly refering (for useful things) to the Civilopedia (that one is good).

Regards,

	05-12-2001 17:13									#36
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To LaRusso,

First excuse me for my poor english,

I think you have made a misunderstanding when you have bought the civ3 Limited Edition.

You were thinking that Infogrames sold you a special edition reserved for a few consumers.

But in fact the word 'limited' for InfoGrames means 'restricted'.

So, in your box you have got :
- a 'limited' civ3 game (ie a game with bugs, without MP, and without any patch)
- a 'limited' tech tree
- a 'limited' designer note (one page as you said)



Seriously, you are right and I say 'go on LaRusso !'

	05-12-2001 18:12									#37
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'Limited' Edition! LOL! That's quite funny.

ravagon: I have just voted you the wisest man on the boards! And since I'm the only one voting (or even caring about the vote), you win! By the way, while I 'kinda' mean what I wrote, I also hoped it would be taken with a grain of funny salt, which you did. Thanks.

	05-12-2001 22:12									#38
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quote: Originally posted by jym But in fact the word 'limited' for InfoGrames means 'restricted'.

How politically correct of them!

Instead of the Defecient, Lacking, or Insufficient Edition, it's the Limited Edition. How silly of me! Of us!

I think Infogrames deserves some kind of award for this level of clarity and command of the English language.

*ahem*

Seriously Jym, that was brilliant.

-mario

	06-12-2001 04:00									#39
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quote: Originally posted by randomturn Calorman are you kidding? "Designer Notes" has a very specific and clear meaning to the gaming community, and Infogrammes knew very well what that meaning was. This was deliberate deceit.

Oh yeah? Since you are such an expert, please provide for all of us exactly what the "very specific and clear meaning" is.

There is no legal basis for action because 1) caveat emptor, 2) product is returnable and 3) semantics on the term "designers' notes". In my work as a software manager, I've done less and I've done more.

Personally, I really wished I didn't pay the money for a LE, it wasn't worth it imo. But in the end, most of us will get $70 of value just by playing the game. As far as sending a message, not paying money for a company's product is the BEST and ONLY non-legal message that a customer can send.

	06-12-2001 05:20									#40
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Sieve Clark, since you are a SOFTWARE MANAGER I guess I should just defer all questions about software to you.

You see, in the much smaller and pedestrian world that I live in, the term "Designer's notes" is a pretty old concept, having been around since at least the release of Myst: it refers to some amount of material pertaining to the making of the product (e.g., designer's diaries, video, unused ideas or art, character backgrounds, etc.). They can take many forms, but a one-page "note from the designers" is not among them.

As to your claim that there is "no legal basis for action," I think if you go back and very slowly and carefully re-read the post of mine you quoted, you will see that I never suggested any. Thanks for your suggestion that I will still get $70 of value just by playing the game. Thank you, thank you, thank you. How could I have been so blind?

	06-12-2001 05:46									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Calorman I mostly agree with you LaRusso and I think your aims are justified. Taking this stance is pointless. You're arguing a case of grammer by implying that "notes" indicates several pages of work. Sorry but I just don't think that's a fair statement to make. Having 'notes' of something could just as well mean one paragraph of information as it could 10 pages. It's interchangable of course, a note could refer to just one piece of paper sure. But the point is that whatever word is used is not the be all and end all. You cannot simply assume that because they stated 'notes' that they specifically meant several pages of words. Not that I'm disagreeing with you Zanzin that the notes are woefully inadequate. I just want to point out that touting this statement in an offical complaint, possibly involving legal issues, is unlikey to get you anywhere. {EDIT} This is just my take on it of course. I don't know anything about law so feel free to tell me if I'm wrong (and a stupid moron).

The term "Designers' Notes" has an expected content. In cases where there is a sizable history of a certain level of content for a technical term, then the term is expected to carry that content.
There is a case here.
(My father-in-law is a patent attorney...different field, but lots of overlap in cases involving customer confusion with advertised features

K)

K