07-12-2001 10:50									#31
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Bobi
this is by sid

quote: So I call it the Covert Action Rule. Don't try to do too many games in one package. And that's actually done me a lot of good. You can look at the games I've done since Civilization, and there's always opportunities to throw in more stuff. When two units get together in Civilization and have a battle, why don't we drop out to a wargame and spend ten minutes or so in duking out this battle? Well, the Covert Action Rule. Focus on what the game is.

u can find it here
http://www.gamespot.com/features/si...nterview12.html

sencho

the system you describe sounds better than the description that came with the eventengine.doc

quote: Beneficial and detrimental Events will tend to break in favor of those civilizations that are lower on the PowerGraph and against those that are higher on the PowerGraph. That is, more detrimental and fewer beneficial Events will be created that affect the leader, while the opposite is true for the player in last place. Furthermore, the closer the proximity and greater the disparity in relative PowerGraph positions between neighbors will increase the likelihood of such Events being generated

i just don't want the event engine to be the deus ex machina for the AI, and that everytime the player gets a significant lead the event engine cavalry rides to the AI's rescue

other than that quibble MoO3 looks like it is really shaping up...the guys at Quicksilver seem to have alot of fire in their belly, and even if they go down, it seems like they want to go down in a blaze of glory, it looks like they fired the newbie represent from Nerf and want this to be a game that might take a little more invesment time to learn how to play but that it will be more than worth it

right now i bought myself EU2 and wrapped it and put it under my (nonexistant) christamas tree as a present to me from me

so once chrismas comes i'll play that for a while and when MoO3 comes out if i have the time i will pick it up and play that too

	07-12-2001 11:41									#32
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If someone has many planets, then there is bigger chace that some of his planets (not one planet particular) is affected by disaster. Have you heard or great eartquake in some small country recenty? No. But in some bigger contry like China, India or Turkey? Yes.

So, in real word some things depend from "number of cities"

	07-12-2001 12:16									#33
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quote: If someone has many planets, then there is bigger chace that some of his planets (not one planet particular) is affected by disaster. Have you heard or great eartquake in some small country recenty? No. But in some bigger contry like China, India or Turkey? Yes. So, in real word some things depend from "number of cities"

lets say that assigning a faultline to a city is beyond the scope of the game and that all cities have an equal chance of having an earthquake

then if there is 100 cities in the game and one player controls 50 he has a 50% chance of having an earthquake in one of his cities while a player with only 1 city has a 1% chance

using the Cosmic Karma concept, because the player with 50 cities would be much more powerful than the play with 1 city, that player would then have a larger (and from the description provided in the eventengine.doc it would be a much larger) probability than 50-1 of having an earthquake, it could be 500-1, maybe 5,00-1, possibly even 50,000-1 odds of having an earthquake

	07-12-2001 12:33									#34
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 lets say that assigning a faultline to a city is beyond the scope of the game and that all cities have an equal chance of having an earthquake then if there is 100 cities in the game and one player controls 50 he has a 50% chance of having an earthquake in one of his cities while a player with only 1 city has a 1% chance using the Cosmic Karma concept, because the player with 50 cities would be much more powerful than the play with 1 city, that player would then have a larger (and from the description provided in the eventengine.doc it would be a much larger) probability than 50-1 of having an earthquake, it could be 500-1, maybe 5,00-1, possibly even 50,000-1 odds of having an earthquake

What you say is true but I would like to see further qualification regarding the even-handedness of the events - ie: able to restrict events or increase chances of events based on in-game statistics.
In the Earthquake example, for instance - increase the chances for planets deeper in the gravity well of a solar system (This is realistic due to faster orbital motion creating more rapidly varying gravitational fields) - Or in another example - increase the chance of a solar flare for planets/systems about certain stellar classes.

	07-12-2001 13:26									#35
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 the system you describe sounds better than the description that came with the eventengine.doc

Same system, different take. I endured a major series of discussions on events in the Moo3 forum, so my thoughts have been focused quite a bit.

quote: i just don't want the event engine to be the deus ex machina for the AI, and that everytime the player gets a significant lead the event engine cavalry rides to the AI's rescue

The AI will play by the same event engine as everyone else. If an AI empire is running away with the game, the they are generating scads of sticks in their neighbor's possession. All the karma cares about is there is someone on top.

It's also more indepth than that. Carrots and sticks (we'll ignore the rest for simplicity) derive from your strength, and the strength and number of your neighbors. If you're all by yourself on the galactic rim, you won't see a single Stick. Both in your pool or played on you. You may still be #1 in the game, but with no neighbors, there are no places to generate sticks.

quote: right now i bought myself EU2 and wrapped it and put it under my (nonexistant) christamas tree as a present to me from me

Why wait? EU2 is a great game. I was quite lucky to get in on its beta test.

quote: Originally posted by ravagon What you say is true but I would like to see further qualification regarding the even-handedness of the events - ie: able to restrict events or increase chances of events based on in-game statistics. In the Earthquake example, for instance - increase the chances for planets deeper in the gravity well of a solar system (This is realistic due to faster orbital motion creating more rapidly varying gravitational fields) - Or in another example - increase the chance of a solar flare for planets/systems about certain stellar classes.

Well, for an earthquake, gravity has very little to do with it directly. It's all tectonics and plate motion and those are driven by internal heat.

Now, as for even-handedness vis-a-vis natural events like earthquakes, I've put all such events as fate events. Meaning a player knows that the event should strike, but there's no way of knowing who gets it. It could even hit the person activating the event!

As for targeting other events, like sticks and carrots. You only get to select who gets hit. The specifics like which planet are random and beyond player control

	07-12-2001 14:06									#36
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Sencho

how important are events in a game?

i understand that with two perfectly balanced players that any random event in the game will turn the tide in one player's direction or the other, but if you have a player who is about 1.5 times as good as another, would the event engine alone allow the worse player to win?

what is the most catastrophic event in the game?
what is the best event in the game?
(i'm leaving this up to you, be subjective just give me an example of the maximum power for creation/destruction that events can offer)

quote: It's also more indepth than that. Carrots and sticks (we'll ignore the rest for simplicity) derive from your strength, and the strength and number of your neighbors. If you're all by yourself on the galactic rim, you won't see a single Stick. Both in your pool or played on you. You may still be #1 in the game, but with no neighbors, there are no places to generate sticks.

so there is some sort of proximity factor in this? that is reassuring...i would hate if i was at the center of the galaxy after having conquered my neighbors then suddenly my empire falls apart because two or three very weaks empires that i have yet to encounter sends plauges, chaos, and the four horsemen of the apocolypse to shatter my empire

though the conditional EU2 event look promising, i'm not sure if they will pan out once i actually get to play it (i have never played any EU game before)

this is from the EU forums

quote: Looking through the files, I noticed there is an event to claim the kingdom of Spain, but not to unite Castile and Aragon. I've created an event that both unites the nations (if you want) AND claims Spain. You need a royal marriage, an alliance, and +200 relations to with Aragon (or Castile, I enabled it for both countries) and then you are given the option to unite. I did this that way the formation would happen more frequently.

i'm not exactly sure how it works out in the real game but on paper it sounds awsome, random in the fact that not every game will turn out the same while it is also very deterministic, quite nice and i hope that MoO3 has something in it like that, if not i guess there is always MoO4 right?

as to why i am not going to open EU2 right now, first my gaming plate is full with Civ3, and second is massive amount of school work...hehe in fact i'm slacking right now

	07-12-2001 21:53									#37
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 Sencho how important are events in a game? i understand that with two perfectly balanced players that any random event in the game will turn the tide in one player's direction or the other, but if you have a player who is about 1.5 times as good as another, would the event engine alone allow the worse player to win?

A good, well run empire shouldn't have too much of a problem from events. There are four classification of events which basically rank their power. From least: Common, Uncommon, Rare, and Cataclysmic. The fourth one will give anyone a hard time at the least, but again, a well run empire should survive.

That said, you can ignore events (on your end) the whole game and spend the IFPs elsewhere. Events are nice, they can alter the balance, but they are not a game breaker.

quote: what is the most catastrophic event in the game? what is the best event in the game? (i'm leaving this up to you, be subjective just give me an example of the maximum power for creation/destruction that events can offer)

The most powerful (ergo, the most catastrophic) events are usually fate events. There is a possibility that there will be a cataclysmic fate event that randomizes all the Jump Lanes (ie changing their terminus points). That's my personal favorite proposed event.

There will be no "best event." The quality of events will depend on the situation the target is in when the event occurs.

quote: so there is some sort of proximity factor in this? that is reassuring...i would hate if i was at the center of the galaxy after having conquered my neighbors then suddenly my empire falls apart because two or three very weaks empires that i have yet to encounter sends plauges, chaos, and the four horsemen of the apocolypse to shatter my empire

The proximity factor only applies to the carrots and sticks. Fates target any existing empire, regardless of where they are and if you know they exist. Of course since you can't choose (or even know) the target of a fate, as opposed to a carrot or stick, this isn't a problem, imo.

quote: though the conditional EU2 event look promising, i'm not sure if they will pan out once i actually get to play it (i have never played any EU game before)

The events in EU2 are very cool indeed. Although a bit harsh on the stability hit, imo. ;-)

quote: i'm not exactly sure how it works out in the real game but on paper it sounds awsome, random in the fact that not every game will turn out the same while it is also very deterministic, quite nice and i hope that MoO3 has something in it like that, if not i guess there is always MoO4 right?

Events will make every game of Moo3 memorable. And there will, in theory, be so many of them that you won't see some of them for months or of playing

quote: as to why i am not going to open EU2 right now, first my gaming plate is full with Civ3, and second is massive amount of school work...hehe in fact i'm slacking right now

Those are very good reasons.

	07-12-2001 22:11									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Sencho Events will make every game of Moo3 memorable. And there will, in theory, be so many of them that you won't see some of them for months or of playing

Will we be able to read all of them if we want to? I have always been curious about how many governors in MOO 2 are, and how are their specs. In MOO 3 I hope I am able to "dissect" nearly everything.

	07-12-2001 23:23									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot Will we be able to read all of them if we want to? I have always been curious about how many governors in MOO 2 are, and how are their specs. In MOO 3 I hope I am able to "dissect" nearly everything.

I don't know about the "dissection" ability of Moo3 as I've heard conflicting material on the Moo3 boards. I know that they'd like to make it as "dissectable" as possible. As for Moo2 heroes, try this link .

	08-12-2001 00:35									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sencho I don't know about the "dissection" ability of Moo3 as I've heard conflicting material on the Moo3 boards. I know that they'd like to make it as "dissectable" as possible. As for Moo2 heroes, try this link .

Gee, thanks!
But I was expecting a link to that conflicting material on the Moo3 boards too!

	08-12-2001 02:00									#41
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If I could remember them, I'd provide them.

	08-12-2001 02:26									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Sencho If I could remember them, I'd provide them.

I'm not in a hurry.

	10-12-2001 08:53									#43
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Hello Sencho, fancy meeting you here.

as i was reading through this thread, i thought i might ask you (as a civ3 playing / NDA'd MOOniac), how would you compare civ3 vs. MOO3? I'm just curious as to what your response would be.

	10-12-2001 09:34									#44
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Hiya Leia,

Small Internet, isn't it?

As to your question, I honestly can't compare them as what's being attempted in Moo3 is so very different than Civ3.

The biggest difference I've noted is how confining Civ3 feels. Once I've found the nth Civ, that's it. In Moo3, the # of empires should be in constant flux. Other differences include Civ3's ridiculously simplistic combat, diplomacy, and an utter lack of events (a personal peeve. )

So Civ3 basically tried to break even, and did that. The end result is an enjoyable if unimaginative game. Moo3 is shooting for the moon, and even if they miss they'll at least get into orbit.

	10-12-2001 22:02									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sencho So Civ3 basically tried to break even, and did that. The end result is an enjoyable if unimaginative game. Moo3 is shooting for the moon, and even if they miss they'll at least get into orbit.

Gosh, how is hard to wait!