12-12-2001 06:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Hurry In event 29 I would ALWAYS get a Leader if I attacked with an elite unit. A non-elite unit would always be upgraded. However, if I already had got a leader in event 16, a new Leader would not appear in event 29. If the only thing considered was if the random number falls under the 1/16 chance, I would get two leaders during my Test2 run. I did not. Only one leader.

you should run a test with caching-in the leader (converting it to an army, or otherwise getting rid of it) to see if the problem is having more than one un-used leader at the same time. i KNOW i have gotten more than one leader in a single turn, but i rushed the first leader back to a city and hurried a wonder before getting the second. if i had the save game for it i would test myself.

i'm inclined to think that only one leader is allowed at a time, the availble LEADER window on the mil advisor screen also seems to imply this.

	12-12-2001 11:47									#32
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I am almost CERTAIN you can have only one unused leader at a time. I'd strongly recommend using them ASAP, especially if the war isn't over yet. First leader should, I think, ALWAYS be converted into an army. If you're fast, you can do that in one turn, and keep attacking to get another!

	12-12-2001 18:25									#33
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I've been playing the game for a couple of weeks none stop, and I tend to always play as the Zulu, but not once have I ever made a leader. I have destroyed many civs trying to cough one up, but I just can't. All I get is a squad of elite warriors and Impis.

	13-12-2001 00:41									#34
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quote: you should run a test with caching-in the leader (converting it to an army, or otherwise getting rid of it) to see if the problem is having more than one un-used leader at the same time.

Ok, thanks for the tip . I did the test. It turned out just as you suspected. If i immediately used my leader from event 16 to rush a building, I would get another one on event 29.

So, I would say this is the fact until someone come up with proof of having several leaders at the same time:

YOU CAN HAVE NO MORE THAN ONE LEADER AT A TIME.

The savegame is attached. Do these moves to test for yourself.

1: attack the cavalry with your elite. You get Leader 1.
2: attack Ur with a veteran armor.
3: attack Ur with a regular armor.
4: attack Ur with an elite armor. YouŽll get a leader if you used the first one up, otherwise not (too bad for you . )

	13-12-2001 05:20									#35
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'I am almost CERTAIN you can have only one unused leader at a time. I'd strongly recommend using them ASAP, especially if the war isn't over yet. First leader should, I think, ALWAYS be converted into an army. If you're fast, you can do that in one turn, and keep attacking to get another!'

Huh? I've had two active at once, not turned into an army or anything, just sitting in my capital, so there's no "cap" on the number of leaders in your possession.

	13-12-2001 11:27									#36
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Then the chance of getting a second one at the same time is considerably lower. For example: getting leader one 1/16, and getting another while still having the first leader unused 1/32.

	13-12-2001 12:07									#37
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I've been playing as the Germans and Russians and not getting any leaders either. Granted, I've not been overly aggressive, but I've fought a decent number of wars. It also seems the AI doesn't get them or use them either. I've never run across an AI army before.

This might also sound like a stupid question, but can you get a leader fighting barbs? It seems like it wouldn't, but it'd be nice to have confirmation.
Nice holiday themed smilies, btw

	13-12-2001 14:33									#38
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You definitely cannot generate leaders from fighting barbarians. It would be too easy!

	13-12-2001 22:39									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Slacker I've been playing as the Germans and Russians and not getting any leaders either. Granted, I've not been overly aggressive, but I've fought a decent number of wars. It also seems the AI doesn't get them or use them either. I've never run across an AI army before. This might also sound like a stupid question, but can you get a leader fighting barbs? It seems like it wouldn't, but it'd be nice to have confirmation. Nice holiday themed smilies, btw

I have to side with Pad on this one, you can't get a leader fight barbs.

BTW: I feel you pain for not getting a leader.

	14-12-2001 01:12									#40
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Last night I was trying out the Germans (to see how "militaristic" helped in war). Normal Map, Continents, Normal/Normal/4billion, Monarch.

I was peaceful for the ancient and most of the medieval eras, quietly building wonders and improvements and such. Toward the end I had built everything available, so I started cranking out knights. These became Cavalry. I then hit the Japanese.

Things started out beautifully. In my first 3 attacks, I got 3 elites. Next turn, Barbarossa! Now I psyched. So I take Barbarossa and turn him into an army, and build the heroic epic. Since then, I have destroyed the Japanese (with the exception of 1 small offshore island city) and English, fighting all sorts of battles with my elite cavalry. No more leaders. I really, really, really need one for the Forbidden Palace. I am giving strong consideration to attacking the French just to try and get a leader (and their rubber, of course). *Sigh* It's just so hit-or-miss.

-Arrian

p.s. I've gotten as many as 4 leaders in one game before... as the Babylonians, in fact!

	14-12-2001 09:36									#41
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I am playing Chinese (usually French is what I choose) and I'm definitely getting more luck with leaders. I've had 3 so far where previously in many games I've only had 1, total.

I saw an AI army too! They were roaring my war, with I suspect a bunch of samurais in them. I decided my city that's closest to the army isn't good enough to defend against the army, and since I already got the cities I wanted in that war, I just declared peace with the Japanese (they still paid me for it) and let them fight the Persians instead

	14-12-2001 10:00									#42
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Arrian,
WLTKD really helps getting those 1-Shield cities' production. Remember, population of 6 required. Post patch, you could get 10 or 20% of your nominal shield output.

	14-12-2001 22:27									#43
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quote: Originally posted by MarshalN I am playing Chinese (usually French is what I choose) and I'm definitely getting more luck with leaders. I've had 3 so far where previously in many games I've only had 1, total. I saw an AI army too! They were roaring my war, with I suspect a bunch of samurais in them. I decided my city that's closest to the army isn't good enough to defend against the army, and since I already got the cities I wanted in that war, I just declared peace with the Japanese (they still paid me for it) and let them fight the Persians instead

yeah, i've seen an AI army once before (although only once) it was the modern era and it had was comprized of three tanks (it was german i think) needless to say i thought peace was my best option when i saw that. but i've never seen one since. I've never seen an indication of AI hurring a wonder though (not that they haven't i just haven't seen a wonder completed in one or two turns indicating that is what had happened.)

	14-12-2001 22:41									#44
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Jaybe,

I know about WLTKD helping with shield loss... but I don't have the patch yet, due to the fact that my modem connection is horrible and keeps freezing while attempting to download. Thus, even with the WLTKD in captured cities, I'm still getting 1 shield. Hopefully, the patch will help with that. However, I have a TON of cities now, so the # of cities corruption is probably a big factor too.

-Arrian

	14-12-2001 23:59									#45
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1) I have seen many AI armies, I was playing a game where there were three AI civs on another continent. I sneaked in a settler/infantry combo and built a city (great technique). I was able to observe the iriquois and germans fight. The Iriquois had an army with inferior units but they managed to force the germans into a peace.

2) if your modem connection is slow and undependable you might want to download a program like Download Accelerator or Flashget, they increase the speed and let you resume downloads if you are cut off.

	15-12-2001 23:23									#46
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how if at all has the patch changed the equation for leader creation?

	16-12-2001 07:52									#47
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STOP THE PRESSES (or forums in this case )

After THREE WEEKS of play, I have FINALLY gotton my FIRST leader playing as the Americans.

But thats not all!

Those FREAKIN' english killed him before I could get to the nearest city!!!

I want to throw the freaking game out the damn window!!!

I must now refrain from becoming a mad man now.

	17-12-2001 07:53									#48
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I have had 2 leaders at once, actually 2 leaders generated in the same turn very close to each other on the battlefield. It was the only time ive had 2 leaders active at once.

My guess is that it could work something like this.....
16 side dice is rolled before each hit point is determined (12 sided dice if you have militistric or the small wonder for more leaders).
This dice is based on the seed and predictable if you reload.. so a sequence could be
1,4,6,1,10,13,7,16 and so on.....

If your elite unit wins AND the dice is on a set number (say 16) then you get a leader. If your unit wasn't elite then you get an upgrade...

When i stop playing the game so much it will be very interesting to pull out the debugger and have a bit of a poke around... if i ever stop playing it lol.. civ1 took me about 6 years..

zedar

	17-12-2001 09:31									#49
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I've never had a game with less than three leaders. This is in, what? Eight games now? The most I've had is seven, in the second Poly tournament game with the most UNmilitaristic English.

I've had at least thirty total leaders, including half a dozen from defending (though never while defending in a city). I've never had more than one leader at a time. There is a window on the military advisor that says "available leader". Not "leaderS", but singular. It certainly seems to me that only one leader at a time can be had, and as someone else said, barring proof to the contrary (like a screenie showing two leaders at once) that's what I will continue to believe.

- Sirian

	18-12-2001 02:15									#50
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The following is a fairly reliable way to generate leaders, but there is a fair chance that you will not actually be able to use that leader.

1) Wait until the AI has railroads.
2) Sail 1 transport full of the highest defense units (hopefully elites, or at least veterans) you have to the AI and land them on the best defensive terrain you can find that is connected to their railroad.
3) Declare war on the AI.
4) Watch as the AI charges you with every available unit and wait for a leader to emerge.
5) If you survive, load the leader on the transport immediately and try to get home.

I have watched several leaders appear only to be killed when the AI overwhelms my landing force. If you haven't had a leader before, you might use the leader to form an army out of any remaining units. The army will probably die, but not before winning at least one victory which will enable you to build the heroic epic and probably the military academy.

	18-12-2001 02:54									#51
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Hey Sirian,

are you the same Sirian from the Diablo2 lurkerslounge? and Sirians guide to sorceresses?

	18-12-2001 03:03									#52
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pchang,

I've seen other posts (by you, perhaps?) detailing how the AI will throw human waves of troops at mech infantry on a RR'd mountain. True, huh? If so... does doing what you suggest qualify as somewhat of an exploit?

Thrawn05 - patience, my friend, patience. It's all luck, and can be frustrating. I really wished I could have saved a few of the leaders (total of 4 or 5, I think) I got in one game for later ones

Zedar - As is (bel)Zedar from the Belgariad/Mallorean? If so, cool name.

-Arrian

	18-12-2001 03:25									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian pchang, I've seen other posts (by you, perhaps?) detailing how the AI will throw human waves of troops at mech infantry on a RR'd mountain. True, huh? If so... does doing what you suggest qualify as somewhat of an exploit?

Somebody else noticed that first. Exploit? Possibly, however, that is the computer response to any invasion when it has railroads, so this "exploit" is part of the natural course of events for anyone who fights a war with the AI when the AI has railroads. I mostly see this with infantry vs. waves of cavalry.

	19-12-2001 01:31									#54
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Hmm, I'll have to try it sometime just to see it. I suppose it isn't an exploit. At least any more than using the UN in Civ II to force peace every time you took a city (or group cities) so that you could consolidate (get those howitzers back inside a city!) and then provoke the AI to war again in the next turn

Having a big, tough enemy can do wonders for your chances of getting leaders. A large opponent is more dangerous, of course, but what it really means is that it will take you longer to destroy his army in the field. More battles. More elite units. More leaders. I got 3 last night as the Babylonians, and the game is still in the mid-industrial era.

-Arrian

	19-12-2001 03:28									#55
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Has anyone noticed an increase in leader generation in blitz scenarios (or multi-defense in the same turn)? The other night I played one of the few games where I waited until the modern age for the final military assault. I had been at constant war the whole game, in purposely prolonged combat. Often I was fighting on as many as 4 fronts, but up until my Modern Armor, I had only generated 2 leaders. (thats in italics because I usually don't get any) Once my Modern Armor started cleaning up, and I became accustomed to their blitz ability, I started generating leaders left and right. 4 of them in just 3 turns, and another one a few turns later. In all cases I used the first leader before another was created. Also, the leaders always were generated on the second successful attack in the turn. I'm sure everyone has noticed the mandatory multiple defense/turn upgrades. Perhaps it is the same for multiple attacks/turn as well? I would guess that I had close to 200 victories with my Modern Armor elites, and at least double that with various other elite forces before that. It's certainly possible that this was just an abnormal occurance, but having over 4 times the leader generation per blitz victory seems a bit much.

As far as the "exploit" defensive invasion, I don't see it as very bad when compared to the ROP invasion. It is quite easy to completely take out a Civ in only a few turns once they are railroaded and give a ROP. It is a bit more difficult to conquer the same Civ by first landing a force, having to defend against the AI offensive, and then counter-attacking. There might be the leader generation factor, but leaders seem less significant in the later eras, other than perhaps 1 or 2 needed for the UN and a palace relocation.

	30-12-2003 08:04									#56
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You can get leaders from defending cities. Great for putting them to immediate use.

Fighting a "defensive" war is probably the most cost effective way to generate leaders. Park troops on mountain fortresses 2 squares away from enemy city in enemy territory. Be sure to have lots of bombaring units. Enemy attacks and gets weakened before hitting your troops.

	30-12-2003 09:15									#57
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In my current game, the cavs are generating plenty of leaders...
Probably because they're beating up on a killer-civ who had a few too many old kinghts and Immortals

	30-12-2003 09:23									#58
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btw, someone mentioned they noticed that units were upgraded more likely if they fight more than once per turn. This is correct, any unit that fights twice per turn and kills both enemy units it fought gets upgraded. Until the modern age (or for Germany with panzers) the only way to see this is on defense (get attacked twice). A third victory seems to always bring you another upgrade (if you started with regular or conscript).

The other thing that may or may not be true (I haven't tested any of this) is that you don't need to win twice on offense or defense to get a 'for sure' upgrade. If on your turn you win on offense and then the same unit wins again on defense, then your unit should be upgraded (this is sort of a rare natural occurance)

	30-12-2003 09:35									#59
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I've been skimming this thread, and it's a buch of crap.

First, whoever said he got a leader from the ocean was lying. This does not happen. End of story.

Second, there is a FIXED PROBABILITY of generating a leader. The reason you think that it's close battles, or difficult battles, etc. is because you remember those instances of getting a leader better. This probability is larger for Militaristic civs, but IT IS FIXED. Firaxis has confirmed this. End of story.

Finally, there is a FIXED CHANCE OF PROMOTION. Militaristic civs have a larger chance, but IT IS FIXED. Again, Firaxis has confirmed this. End of story.

	30-12-2003 10:12									#60
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P.S. The specifics are in a thread listed in the 'must-read' thread. The guy is right. (^^^ at Skywalker)
I do believe double-wins guarantee-ing promotion were mentioned though...although I think it was said that you need to win twice AGAIN to guarantee promo #2.

Anyway - the link is there - go see for yourselves