07-12-2001 18:30									#31
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quote: DETROIT -- The U.S. State Department, which periodically updates a list of known terrorist organizations, released its latest list, with a total of 28 groups. At least four non-Muslim groups were listed: Ireland's Real IRA and two organizations from Colombia -- United Self-Defense Forces and the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC). A militant Jewish group, known as Kach, is also cited for terrorism.

So that's 4 out of 28 groups that WERE NOT MUSLIM.

http://www.news4jax.com/sh/news/sto...005-121013.html

You can also take a look at the Department of State's list from 2000. Tell me what any other of those groups have in common! Yet there is an overwhelming similiarity in a majority of the groups and that is that THEY ARE MUSLIM. The only group that comes close is Communists or Marxists, Leninists. Here's a list of the Islamic organizations mentioned:

Abu Nidal organization (ANO)
Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)
Armed Islamic Group (GIA)
Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)
Hizballah (Party of God)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU)
Al-Jihad
Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK or MKO)
The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC)
al-Qaida
Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM) (Army of Mohammed)
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT) (Army of the Righteous)

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrp....cfm?docid=2450

Any questions?

	07-12-2001 18:32									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Bob Dornan Why is it that no Muslim country can live in peace with a non Muslim neighbor Because the Islam religion promotes itself as the only true one and non believers must be killed.

Ah ... Just read again your book on history of the western civilisations. And notes how agressive was the christian kingdoms !
(Catholics, englicans, protestans ...).

All monotheiste religions are agressive.

	07-12-2001 18:40									#33
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Let me also point out that John Ashcroft also released a list of 46 terrorist groups, and it was CRITICIZED because it did not go far enough in naming specific Islamic groups based in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

	07-12-2001 18:41									#34
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"The U.S. State Department... the Department of State's list from 2000.... overwhelming similiarity in a majority of the groups and that is that THEY ARE MUSLIM. The only group that comes close is Communists or Marxists, Leninists."

What a.... surprise.

Can't be arsed to follow thelink. What kind of list is that supposed to be ? Where are say all the splinter groups from NI ?

	07-12-2001 18:46									#35
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Find me a neutral link that refutes that list and you might actually have a counter argument Roland.

And YES, there are all the splinter groups from Northern Ireland listed on the list. I just named the Islamic ones mentioned. If you actually followed the link and you might have seen that.

It's a list of known terrorist groups, plain and simple.

	07-12-2001 18:50									#36
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It also names off Jewish terrorist groups, along with a Royalist Irish group.

So I don't think there's as much bias as you think there is.

	07-12-2001 18:51									#37
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So with the splinter groups and other nuts, what is tha share of a) arab and b) islamic organisations ?

"Find me a neutral link that refutes that list and you might actually have a counter argument Roland."

Why don't you start by posting a list from a neutral source to begin with ?

	07-12-2001 18:57									#38
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Faboda -

quote: Raaaaaaaaaacist. Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacist. *cough*Klu-klux-klan*cough*Example of Christian fundementalism.*cough*Crusades*cough

A person is neither a racist or a bigot for criticizing a group or person for their religious beliefs.

Paiktis22 -

quote: After all they have states that have armies that can do what ever it is they want to do.

This is contradicted by this:

quote: their governments can not afford to go to a true war because USA would kick their butts so the people resort to terrorism?

And this:

quote: their governments are dictatorships and do not obey their people's wishes so they resort to terrorism?

quote: is it because they are screwed over and just can't take it anymore? is it because they are lunatics? what make these small fractions resort to terrorism more than others?

Because they are murderers with "God" on their side.

Of course, people with other forms of religion and ideology use their governmental systems to commit acts of terrorism and just call it "the law". For example, Jerry Falwell claims to be a man of "God" while demanding government cage millions of people for not behaving in accordance with his religion. And since he can't afford to have this done with his own money, he demands the same government rob hundreds of millions of people to pay for his desire to express his religion. Then there are the liberals who do the same thing except they don't always agree with Jerry on who should be put in cages.

	07-12-2001 19:03									#39
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Well, I consider those sources to be as credible as any other. Just because it says, "US government" does not automatically exclude it.

Well, in the first link, 86% are Muslim, in the second automatically-biased-since-it's-US-one, 36%, making it the largest group on the list.

We aren't talking about Arabs, we're talking about Muslims.

If you want to find out about Arabs then do the calculations yourself, that's what the links are for.

	07-12-2001 19:14									#40
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"Just because it says, "US government" does not automatically exclude it."

It doesn't, but on a highly political matter where your terrorist is the next guy's freedom fighter, it is. A complete list of the partly US sponsored death squads in latin america might well outshine the islamic contribution...

"We aren't talking about Arabs, we're talking about Muslims."

Then why did you include say Abu Nidal ? IIRC that is a marxist one. Also most arab nationalist groups are related to the Baath movement (Syria+Iraq), which is secular.

	07-12-2001 19:19									#41
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quote: Abu Nidal organization (ANO) a.k.a. Fatah Revolutionary Council, Arab Revolutionary Brigades, Black September, and Revolutionary Organization of Socialist Muslims

Then provide me with a list of current US sponsored death squads.

South American groups are also on the list, by the way.

	07-12-2001 19:25									#42
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"Socialist muslims" ? I like that.

"South American groups are also on the list, by the way."

How many from the right ?

I'll leave it to Che and others to provide that list for...

	07-12-2001 19:27									#43
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Statement: As a percentage, Blacks commit more murders in America than whites.

Is this to say that Blacks are naturally more violent and murderous than Whites? No. I think you see my point.

	07-12-2001 19:40									#44
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Nobody is saying that they are terrorists simply because they are Muslim.

But a large percentage of terrorists ARE Muslim. Therefore they are statistically more prone to terrorism.

THAT is the point.

Black men statistically have a higher rate of incarceration than any other group. Are they more prone to end up being locked up? Yes, they are.

Whether that's envrionment, economics, or whatever, that's a fact. "Naturally" has nothing to do with it.

Roland if you want to talk about those lists any more, than you need to read them as I'm not going to spoon feed you.

	07-12-2001 19:47									#45
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quote: Originally posted by orange Statement: As a percentage, Blacks commit more murders in America than whites. Is this to say that Blacks are naturally more violent and murderous than Whites? No. I think you see my point.

I heard : for 10 black men who commited a murder, 9 are imprisoned until they are executed.
for 10 white men who commited a murder, less than 7 are executed...

Is it true ?

	07-12-2001 19:48									#46
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quote: But a large percentage of terrorists ARE Muslim. Therefore they are statistically more prone to terrorism.

Depends on how you define "terrorism". If it is the intentional murder of an innocent to scare others to do as you say, then government(s) is the largest terrorist organization in the world.

	07-12-2001 19:51									#47
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"Roland if you want to talk about those lists any more, than you need to read them as I'm not going to spoon feed you."

Ok... so what's the point of the division between certified and other ? "Evilness", I assume ?

"But a large percentage of terrorists ARE Muslim. Therefore they are statistically more prone to terrorism."

Really ? Even if I buy that list, it shows that a large percentage of terrorist _organisations_ are somehow muslim-related. Considering the tendency of the PLO alone to factionize... Got any membership data ? Active terrorists only, by religion, please.

	07-12-2001 19:51									#48
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior I heard : for 10 black men who commited a murder, 9 are imprisoned until they are executed. for 10 white men who commited a murder, less than 7 are executed... Is it true ?

Well blacks receive the death penalty disproportionatley higher than whites commiting the same crimes.

	07-12-2001 19:53									#49
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quote: But a large percentage of terrorists ARE Muslim. Therefore they are statistically more prone to terrorism.

* There's a hell of a lot of muslims out there. Not sure about the terrorist per capita...

*What defines a muslim? Is a terrorist muslim if he's born in a muslim country?

*The reasons why people in muslim countries are more prone to turn to terrorism is probably due to a number of factors, must of them have nothing or very little to do with religion in itself.

	07-12-2001 19:55									#50
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I have no idea what your first question means

quote: Got any membership data ?

Sure, let me call up al-Queda Public Relations department and I'll ask for their donation list.

quote: Active terrorists only, by religion, please.

Are you f ucking illiterate!?! READ THE DAMN LIST THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF IT!!

Every single organization I listed was both:

1) ACTIVE
2) MUSLIM

DUH!!!

	07-12-2001 19:58									#51
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quote: *What defines a muslim? Is a terrorist muslim if he's born in a muslim country?

I think it has something to do with...oh, what was that...oh yeah, could it be, having the word "MUSLIM" or "ISLAMIC" in the name of the organization?

	07-12-2001 19:59									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Nobody is saying that they are terrorists simply because they are Muslim.

"Why are muslims more prone to terrorism as a means to achieve their goals"

It is unfair to categorize muslims as being more or less prone to terrorism simply because they are muslims.

The idea is, there are plenty of non-terrorist muslims. Is it also fair to say that Arabs are more prone to terrorism as a means to achieve their goals? Middle Easterners are more prone to terrorism as a means to achieve their goals? Asians are more prone to terrorism as a means to achieve their goals? Palestinians are more prorne to terrorism as a means to achieve their goals?

It's not the religious affiliation that is causing them to use terrorism. It's the situation that they're in, and the fact that most people in that situation are of a certain religion.

	07-12-2001 20:05									#53
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I asked: "Active terrorists only, by religion, please."

I see terrorist _organisations_ in that list. Not terrorists. Also, there are say arab nationalist terrorists of christian faith.

It's quite funny... I'd agree there is a lot of islam-related terrorist activity, but I fail to see any way to get this into numbers. Unless you do as you say and call up al-Queda Public Relations department andask for their membership list....

You have one jewish org. on that list. Globally, there are about 80-100 times more muslims than jews. So judging from your list with what 25 muslim orgs, Jews are 3-4 times more prone to be terrorists than muslims ?

	07-12-2001 20:09									#54
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You guys are just not getting it and are putting words in my mouth, trying to advance your own agenda.

That second quote you mentioned, ORANGE, was not mine.

I am not implying that one of the CAUSES of the Muslim terrorist groups is that they are Muslim. Don't even try and stuff that in my mouth.

But the fact of the matter is, I will gurarantee there is many more terrorists out there that are Muslim than non Muslim.

I have presented evidence to back this up, and you all have attempted to refute it, yet have NOT provided any evidence of your own to counter it.

There are also plenty of non black players in the NBA, so it's most likely that an NBA player is black.

So I'm a racist for saying that it is most likely that given a random player in the NBA, he will most likely be black?

Last edited by Ted Striker on 07-12-2001 at 20:17

	07-12-2001 20:14									#55
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Roland : good point . one jewish organization.

but if we would run statistics on their support relatively to population size, i bet the result would be different.

anyway , jewish terrorist groups are almost not active , on the other side there is plenty activity of the muslim ones, don't you think?

quote: It's not the religious affiliation that is causing them to use terrorism. It's the situation that they're in, and the fact that most people in that situation are of a certain religion.

well that's just not true. if you see the incomes in the arab countries like syria and egypt , and compare them to , say , no muslim african countries , or non-muslim asian countries , you'll see that the ones that are poorer are the ones that are not muslim .

	07-12-2001 20:16									#56
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"but if we would run statistics on their support relatively to population size, i bet the result would be different."

I agree with you, but the point was only to highlight the counting of terror orgs as slightly useless.

	07-12-2001 20:17									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Roland You have one jewish org. on that list. Globally, there are about 80-100 times more muslims than jews. So judging from your list with what 25 muslim orgs, Jews are 3-4 times more prone to be terrorists than muslims ?

Good point

	07-12-2001 20:18									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker orange, you just are not getting it.

No, I get it. I'm not implying that you're a racist or that the one who started this thread is. You're not listening...

quote: Nobody is implying that one of the CAUSES of the Muslim terrorist groups is that they are Muslim.

quote: quote: ...it is apparent that people of the muslim religion are more prone to use terrorism for achieving their aims...

That is a false statement the way it is worded. It is not apparent that people of the muslim religion are more prone to using terrorism for achieving their aims.

Many things are apparent...for example...
Many terrorist organizations are made up of Muslims
A higher number of Muslims are terrorirsts than members of other religious groups

...but it is NOT apparent that Muslims are more prone to use terrorism because of these statistics.

What is apparent, instead, is that people in the situation that terrorirsts are in are more likely to use acts of terrorism to achieve their goals.

quote: There are also plenty of non black players in the NBA. So I'm a racist for saying that it is most likely that given a random player in the NBA, he will most likely be black?

No. You also wouldn't be a racist if you said that given a random terrorist, he would most likely be Muslims/Arab/from Palestine if you had the numbers and percentages to back it up (which I'm sure they exist, I'm not refuting that they do)

But the person is not more likely to become a terrorist simply because he is muslim.

You'll note that before this post, I have not used the word racist or any other word with similar meaning.

	07-12-2001 20:19									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Well blacks receive the death penalty disproportionatley higher than whites commiting the same crimes.

	07-12-2001 20:24									#60
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Well, you edited your post quite a bit, so here's a new post from me...

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker You guys are just not getting it and are putting words in my mouth, trying to advance your own agenda.

Stop whining. No one is doing any of this. Please tell me, what is my hidden agenda?

quote: That second quote you mentioned, ORANGE, was not mine.

I NEVER CLAIMED THAT IT WAS! You said "no one claimed yada yada yada" and I showed you why I thought that they did. Did I say that you said it? NO! I quoted the God damn thread title!

quote: I am not implying that one of the CAUSES of the Muslim terrorist groups is that they are Muslim. Don't even try and stuff that in my mouth.

Never did, never tried. Again, have yet to call you or anyone in this thread a "racist" or "bigot" or anything of the sort. Any reason you're being so goddamn defensive Ted?

quote: But the fact of the matter is, I will gurarantee there is many more terrorists out there that are Muslim than non Muslim.

Prove it! You have yet to do so. Get exact figures, buddy, and then we'll talk.

quote: I have presented evidence to back this up, and you all have attempted to refute it, yet have NOT provided any evidence of your own to counter it.

If I give you 1 million organizations with 1 member each of one 'group', and one organization with one million and one people in it of another 'group', which group has more terrorists? According to you, the first, because there are more terrorist organizations. You haven't given numerical data at all...