07-12-2001 20:14									#31
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Drake -

quote: But how often do they actually help someone defend themselves? I don't think I can recall a single story in which the use of a gun helped matters. Can you?

Far more often than they are used to kill or wound someone. Yes, the LA riots - asian shopowners stood on top of their stores armed with guns. They weren't robbed of their property...

	07-12-2001 20:17									#32
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quote: Originally posted by RUFFHAUS 8 I guess you Eurocommies are better behaved than us, eh? Gee, tell you what. What the US gets close to 20 million homicides, why don't the EUROPEANS come tell us about how bad we are.

)


Why ? It's your problem , not our !

And you're right, american are far from the gentlemen way of life !

	07-12-2001 20:30									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Off the top of my head. On Oct. 1, 1997 the vice principal of Pearl High School , who watched two of his students shot to death and 7 others injured, took out a gun he had hidden and chased the murderer and captured him before he could escape. The only reason I remember that is because I lived one town over from where this happened.

That's a completely self defeating argument! If there had been stricter gun control in place, the guy who shot the two students wouldn't have had the gun in the first place!

Second of all: It's sick that a principal had a gun in his own school! What a joke, to think things like this can happen in American schools. I'd have that guy fired regardless of being seen as a 'hero' or not. Complete idiocy...

Your argument is that guns can be used to protect yourself from guns, but if you take away the guns, there's no need for the fear to exist!

	07-12-2001 20:33									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Drake - Far more often than they are used to kill or wound someone. Yes, the LA riots - asian shopowners stood on top of their stores armed with guns. They weren't robbed of their property...

Not their job. People shouldn't take the law into their own hands...more people get killed that way.

Would you justify it if, say, one of those shopkeepers shot two men dead with those guns in 'self defense'? What if he didn't give a warning and just started firing at the rioters?

	07-12-2001 20:37									#35
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quote: Originally posted by orange That's a completely self defeating argument! If there had been stricter gun control in place, the guy who shot the two students wouldn't have had the gun in the first place!

IIRC, he stole the guns. So, I fail to see how stricter gun laws would have made a difference in that place.

quote: I'd have that guy fired regardless of being seen as a 'hero' or not. Complete idiocy...

Yeah, I agree. How dare they give a guy a break just because he happened to have saved a few lives!

quote: Your argument is that guns can be used to protect yourself from guns

I made no arguement of the kind. I merely answered a question that was asked of me.

quote: but if you take away the guns,

I've yet to see a workable plan for this. Would you like to provide one?

	07-12-2001 20:43									#36
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Yes, orange said what I was going to start getting at.

Guns are too readily available to unstable and irresponsible people. If I wanted to, today, I could go to the local sporting goods store, pick up a hunting rifle, a few cases of shells, walk to the local mall and smoke a few dozen people without breaking a sweat. Can't do that with a knife, or even something like a bow. Guns makes killing too easy.

Hence the amount of gun related deaths we have every year.

	07-12-2001 20:55									#37
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quote: Originally posted by orange Not their job. People shouldn't take the law into their own hands...more people get killed that way. Would you justify it if, say, one of those shopkeepers shot two men dead with those guns in 'self defense'? What if he didn't give a warning and just started firing at the rioters?

Not their job? Hmmmm, now we're getting somewhere. The police cannot protect you, nor is it their 'job' to protect you. The police enforce laws, primarily traffic laws - but that's another story (tax collection). The police engage in "Law Enforcement" not "Crime Prevention." It is your responsibility to protect yourself and your family, and a loaded firearm is the best tool for the job. If you wish to ignore this responsibility, you do so at your own risk.


Yes, the hypothetical Korean storeowner would have been justified in shooting the two hypothetical rioters dead in self defense if they entered his closed store or othrwise threatened his life - yelled warning or not. Do you disagree?

	07-12-2001 21:08									#38
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quote: Originally posted by RUFFHAUS 8 Not their job? Hmmmm, now we're getting somewhere. The police cannot protect you, nor is it their 'job' to protect you. The police enforce laws, primarily traffic laws - but that's another story (tax collection). The police engage in "Law Enforcement" not "Crime Prevention." It is your responsibility to protect yourself and your family, and a loaded firearm is the best tool for the job. If you wish to ignore this responsibility, you do so at your own risk. Yes, the hypothetical Korean storeowner would have been justified in shooting the two hypothetical rioters dead in self defense if they entered his closed store or othrwise threatened his life - yelled warning or not. Do you disagree?

Of course we disagree, you complete ****ing loon!

Were you shot through the head as a child or were you born mentally deficient?

	07-12-2001 21:13									#39
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Many parents in a pathetic attempt to "protect" their kids, have killed their kids by leaving weapons accessable to them.

Many people have good intentions in buying guns, but between accidents and unforseen situations, they often do much more bad than they could ever do good.

	07-12-2001 21:16									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc IIRC, he stole the guns. So, I fail to see how stricter gun laws would have made a difference in that place.

Where'd he steal them from? A gun store? A person's house? Same idea, he wouldn't be able to steal them from someone if that someone didn't have the guns.

quote: Yeah, I agree. How dare they give a guy a break just because he happened to have saved a few lives!

Doesn't justify the crime of bringing a loaded gun into a school. Unacceptable IMO.

quote: I made no arguement of the kind. I merely answered a question that was asked of me.

Fair enough. Sorry if I seemed to snap at you.

quote: I've yet to see a workable plan for this. Would you like to provide one?

I think we need to look to Europe on this one. But the sooner, the better...

	07-12-2001 21:21									#41
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quote: Originally posted by RUFFHAUS 8 Not their job? Hmmmm, now we're getting somewhere. The police cannot protect you, nor is it their 'job' to protect you. The police enforce laws, primarily traffic laws - but that's another story (tax collection). The police engage in "Law Enforcement" not "Crime Prevention." It is your responsibility to protect yourself and your family, and a loaded firearm is the best tool for the job. If you wish to ignore this responsibility, you do so at your own risk.

Enforce laws...

There are laws against murder, there are laws against looting, there are laws against riots, theft, and arson. The police need to enforce those laws...

If you had a law banning hand guns, wouldn't they have to enforce that too? Wouldn't all these laws combined = protection?

(As a prethought, I don't think it's fair to call people "****ing loons" because of their views on something as controversial as gun control...but I do agree with Rogan Josh on this...)

quote: Yes, the hypothetical Korean storeowner would have been justified in shooting the two hypothetical rioters dead in self defense if they entered his closed store or othrwise threatened his life - yelled warning or not. Do you disagree?

Yes I disagree. How can you justify a shooting based on a riot? What if the shopkeeper began shooting out of fear, and tried to justify it with self defense because of a riot? What if her shop wasn't even being looted. What constitutes self defense in your mind?

	07-12-2001 21:22									#42
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Yes, the prinicipal with a gun is kind of sketchy. Isn't it a felony to have a firearm on school grounds?

	07-12-2001 21:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by drake Yes, the prinicipal with a gun is kind of sketchy. Isn't it a felony to have a firearm on school grounds?

I believe it is, one of the reasons he should definitely be fired if not prosecuted!

	07-12-2001 22:25									#44
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Dude, splosions are way cooler than guns. Compare, if you will, the movies The Professional and The Specialist.

The Professional has lots of guns and a couple splosions. The Specialist has lots of splosions.

The Professional is about an assassin who only shoots a few people throughout the entire movie. The Specialist is about an assassin who blows lots of people up. Wutang!

The Professional has a whiny child actress. The Specialist does not.

The Professional detracts from its few splosion scenes by having a good plot. The Specialist ignores plot in favor of more splosions.

The Professional has some French guy as the lead. The Specialist has Stallone or Schwarzenegger or some other musclehead. Who would you prefer, a Frenchman or a weightlifter?

So clearly The Specialist is a superior movie because it has more splosions. If splosions are cooler than guns, why don't we have a "bombs for guns" program so that we can all carry around bombs for protection instead of guns? I know I'd feel a lot safer...

	07-12-2001 22:27									#45
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You know, I frankly don't give a **** if too many guns cause lots of death. That's ****ing irrelevant. Only thing that matters is that I have both the right to bear arms, and the right to private property which includes guns, guaranteed by the US Constitution. People dying because of it don't matter much to me, because my Constitutional rights outweigh any other bullshit argument you can make.

Euros and liberals don't like it? Tough ****. Don't buy a gun, or don't move to America. Just because Rosie ****ing O'Donnell thinks guns should be banned (of course, her own bodyguard carries a gun :rolleyes doesn't mean they should be.

I will say, though, that if the feds try to ban guns, that'll just make crime go up - lots and lots of dead cops and hopefully politicians too. Oh, wait, I forgot, that wouldn't be a crime, that'd simply be defending your rights.

	07-12-2001 22:29									#46
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techno, that's funny as HELL! I know...maybe everyone should strap themselves with dynamite or C4 or some ****, and carry around a dead man's trigger. Let's see who gets ****ed with then

	07-12-2001 22:44									#47
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david, do you pull this crap in real life too?

Deaths don't matter as long as your rights to bear arms are protected by the constitution?

"People dying because of it don't matter much to me, because my Constitutional rights outweigh any other bullshit argument you can make. "

Your attitude is quite pathetic
You have no empathy whatsoever.

People are more important than your rights david. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

Why don't you just go right ahead and say "I don't care about anything but me." ME ME ME. Selfish *****.

Just another rebel without a clue.

	07-12-2001 22:51									#48
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Actually I would say that the guarantee and protection of individual rights are more important than some people dying. Eventually, we'll lose our last rights if you go down that road - and while things may or may not be safer, we won't have any freedom.

But the point is, a gun ban could NEVER happen in the US, there would have to be massive bipartisan support to pass a Constitutional amendment, and even if that amendment got passed there is NO way 3/4s of the states would ratify it.

OTOH, Arizona already has a law sitting on the books saying that if the feds try to ban guns, Arizona, in conjunction with other states will secede.

	07-12-2001 22:58									#49
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It must, of course, be legal to carry firearms [haven't given it much thought, but carry of explosive ordnance may be OK too].

This law should be global. Any country not complying should be deemed a terrorist state by the US government and added to the list for eventual replacement of its government with a government more pliable to US demands.

Every individual on the planet over the age of 18 [hereafter refered to as global citizens] should be required to carry one longarm and one concealed smallarm when leaving their place of residence.

All global citizens should be required to take periodic mandatory precision markmanship training and livefire combat firarm training.

All global citizens should be 'deputized' by their local law enforcement agencies and given the power of arrest.

Bounties on common law fugitives should be issued and payable to any law enforcement agent.

Persons advocating gun control should be charged and tried for commission of a misdemeanor and once declared guilty, an aprropriate bounty established.

	07-12-2001 23:04									#50
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What good are individual rights to the people who get killed???Hmm? What good are rights if your brains are blown across the pavement??

I never said guns should be banned myself. Just harder to get a hold of. Not being so glamourized and appealing to kids who think "guns are cool" . Having to license them on a regular basis might be helpful.

And what do you mean by "some" david? How many people dead are enough for you to change your mind? 10? 100? 1000? 1000000? How many are enough for you to actually think about something rather than just contiuing to throw out your "i have rights" line?

People are brainwashed into thinking they need a gun to feel safe. And in some extreme cases, this may be so, but not for the rest of the population. Not IMO. They just aren't necessary.

Don't get me wrong, the actual guns themselves arent the problem. Its this aggressive society. The society is ripe for violence. The abundance of guns just makes it too easy for anyone with the right mind, to become a very real danger to society.

Less guns = better for societies health
More guns = better for increasing murder and keeping the gun manufacturers rich (and of course protecting davids rights !)

You talk of the right to bear arms like it is a real priviledge. I can own a gun. Whoopty freekin do.

	07-12-2001 23:09									#51
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I must congratulate you David, you define "redneck"

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd You know, I frankly don't give a **** if too many guns cause lots of death. That's ****ing irrelevant. Only thing that matters is that I have both the right to bear arms, and the right to private property which includes guns, guaranteed by the US Constitution. People dying because of it don't matter much to me, because my Constitutional rights outweigh any other bullshit argument you can make.

We let 5,000 people a year die so you can sit around pondering the idea that you're allowed to have a gun. I love your logic

quote: Euros and liberals don't like it? Tough ****. Don't buy a gun, or don't move to America. Just because Rosie ****ing O'Donnell thinks guns should be banned (of course, her own bodyguard carries a gun :rolleyes doesn't mean they should be.

Personally I hate Rosie O'Donnell, so I don't see why you're bringing her into this.

quote: I will say, though, that if the feds try to ban guns, that'll just make crime go up - lots and lots of dead cops and hopefully politicians too. Oh, wait, I forgot, that wouldn't be a crime, that'd simply be defending your rights.

God, I wish Texas would secede, I really do.

	07-12-2001 23:16									#52
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Drake:
What good are individual rights to the people who get killed???

What good is being alive if we have no individual rights? How many rights are you willing to take away for the sake of keeping people alive?

	07-12-2001 23:25									#53
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quote: Originally posted by technophile Drake: What good are individual rights to the people who get killed??? What good is being alive if we have no individual rights? How many rights are you willing to take away for the sake of keeping people alive?

I don't see the Euros complaining about not having guns, do you?

	08-12-2001 00:00									#54
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quote: guaranteed by the US Constitution

The US Constitution has been changed quite often in the past. Why not change it again? Especcially since it causes so many deaths.

And a homicide rate 7 times higher than in Europe is rather appaling for a western nation.

	08-12-2001 00:07									#55
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DinoDoc deserves credit for not pigeon-holing himself here. He neither says he wants guns banned/ more control as the more liberal do, nor does he push for greater enforcement of current laws (saying through sarcasm that the guy in his example ahould not be prosecyted for breaking a pretty useful gun law on the books), the favoured position of the NRA. Can we have a concrete viewpoint for once please?

	08-12-2001 00:09									#56
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quote: Originally posted by orange I don't see the Euros complaining about not having guns, do you?

I'd imagine that there are quite a few Eastern Europeans who wish that they'd had more guns when the Soviets more or less annexed them.

Just because a society is currently stable is no assurance that it will remain so indefinitely; the second amendment is there so that US citizens can defend themselves in times of instability, like in Berserker's example of the LA riots.

	08-12-2001 00:20									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L The US Constitution has been changed quite often in the past. Why not change it again? Especcially since it causes so many deaths.

Constitutions don't kill people... People kill people.

quote: And a homicide rate 7 times higher than in Europe is rather appaling for a western nation.

Could stand to be a bit higher...

	08-12-2001 00:48									#58
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quote: What good is being alive if we have no individual rights? How many rights are you willing to take away for the sake of keeping people alive?

Oh jesus christ, here we go again. I talk about common sense and people jump on the "i have rights" wagon.

We're talking about the right to own a friggin gun, gimme a break. It's not lowering anybodys quality of life. It's not hurting people. It would save lives (without a doubt, try arguing it!). Because one has the right to buy a gun doesnt mean they should or should be encouraged to. It's not necessary and it does more harm to society than help.

Ok, someone please help me out here. WIthout playing the constitution card, someone please give me 10 good reasons what benefit guns bring to society. Real legitimate reasons, not "because they're cool" david.

Anyone on the pro-gun side up for it? I sure can give you 10 con reasons why guns should be regulated better.

	08-12-2001 00:52									#59
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Damn, I am so not in the mood for one of these threads right now, but the baka brigade is out in force.

--"I don't think I can recall a single story in which the use of a gun helped matters. Can you?"

I can think of a number, actually, but only because I watch some non-mainstream news sources and get some back-channel news from my father (the cop).

See, the thing is, defensive gun usages are rarely ratings-worthy. They're ususally not really flashy, since most of the time all you have to do is show the gun to get left alone. This means they're usually not even reported to the police. When they are flashy (like the clerk who killed a guy trying to take several customers hostage at gunpoint) they never seem to make the national media for some reason. Go figure.

Anyway, several studies have been done on this. The numbers range from 800,000 to 2.5 million defensive gun usages in the US every year.

--"In other words, in European nations where guns are outlawed the homicide rate is 7 times lower than in the USA."

And in Japan the suicide rate is several times what it is in the US, but they have far fewer guns. By your logic, lack of guns causes suicide.

Sorry, but two samples and your belief does not a causation make. You haven't even shown a correlation yet. If you don't like guns, fine, say so, but please make actual arguments.

--"they obviously are not laws that are doing anything meaningful or drastic when it comes to gun control."

Yeah, our law enforcement officials are too busy pushing officers to arrest marijuana smokers to bother with gun dealers and convicted criminals attempting to buy weapons.

--"Explain to me then why the statistics that MarkL gave exist"

There are a large number of reasons for it. The US and the EU have quite dis-similar societies, so any direct comparison of the sort you guys want is difficult.

--"If there had been stricter gun control in place, the guy who shot the two students wouldn't have had the gun in the first place!"

Oh bullshit. Surveys conducted with inmates at state and federal prisons shows that over 80% say they can get a gun within a week of getting out of jail. Note, these are convicted criminals, and it's already illegal for them to buy guns. You think criminals are going to obey the laws in regards to buying guns?

Look, drugs are shipped into this country in ton lots. Guns are not going away, no matter how many laws you pass, which means you can only disarm the law-abiding citizens.

--"Guns makes killing too easy."

Cars make them easy too. Right before one of the big media frenzies over a school shooting, one guy ran his car into a group of students in front of a school. He did admit to doing it on purpose, trying to kill people, but for some reason this story didn't really hit the national scene.

--"Many parents in a pathetic attempt to "protect" their kids, have killed their kids by leaving weapons accessable to them."

Which is a comment about stupid parents, not how evil guns are.

--"The police need to enforce those laws..."

Nope. Supreme Court rulings say they only have to try to figure out who did them. They don't have any duty to try to stop them from happening.

--"People are more important than your rights david. Sorry if that hurts your feelings."

Individual rights are more important than anything. If you start allowing exceptions to individual rights you aren't going to have the most fundamental one, the right to life, much longer either.

Wraith
"Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

	08-12-2001 00:57									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie (saying through sarcasm that the guy in his example ahould not be prosecyted for breaking a pretty useful gun law on the books),

a) I think that you assume to much here. I'm actually not sure what the vice principal did is a crime under the MS criminal code. In fact, one of my professors actually admits to carrying a concealed weapon on his person at all times.

b) Do you really think that you'd find a jury to convict the man of anything in the entire state of MS? I don't.

quote: Can we have a concrete viewpoint for once please?

I actually think that greater enforcement of the approx. 20k gun laws the US has on the books would be a good place to start before we start enacting new gun laws/bans. Is that clear enough?