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Morganstern
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Birmingham, MI, USA
Oct 1999
time: 00:16
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I chose attention with this important modification. Many (not all) of these folks desperately need to draw attention to their Intelligence. There's a certain ethic these types prescribe to, and that is you're not intelligent unless you criticize something. In the worldview of most of these adherents, the opposite is also true: those who praise something, follow a tradition, or otherwise fail to criticize a product or concept are stupid. In many quarters, the manner in which one lays out the critique is itself the all-important sign of intelligence, of course making the act of criticizing essential.
The mistake here is obvious. Intelligent critical thinking can actually lead to praise of a concept, argument, or even a product like a computer game. One need not be critical to be a critical thinker.
This theory is of course not limited to computer game board posters; other notable practitioners include TV newscasters and newspaper reporters.
BTW, this does not mean that all criticism of CIV3 must be dismissed as negative prattling. It's just that most critiques found on this board give the reader the impression that the author is simply not disposed to offer even faint or partial praise for a product that most consider to be of high quality.
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I voted for 'kids'--which isn't entirely accurate, but it was closest to my opinion. Personally, I don't think the whining has anything to do with physical age, but everything to do with maturity. Whining is what immature people do because they believe that the world should revolve around them and they are finding that it doesn't.
It's a game. It doesn't bring meaning to my life. It doesn't fulfill all of my needs. It just entertains. And for me, it does a very fine job of that. 
BTW, Zealot: How do you define 'newbies'? (I certainly don't have as many posts as you, but I am anything but a newbie.)
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Moraelin
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How about an option that says "People who would like the game to be improved into something anywhere near what was promised?" I've spent the whole afternoon staring into the editor trying to fix the screw-ups that the game shipped with. (And you can find the mod in the Files forum, so don't just believe me.) With that lame, barely functional editor. Even though I'm not paid by Firaxis. My eyes hurt already, and my skull feels numb, after endless switching between editor and game to see how those changes play out, and whether the existing AI uses them effectively.
And tomorrow I'll have to go at it again, to copy those changes into the other mod as well. Because the complete lack of scripting means that if you want some stuff to be optional, the only way is to develop two mods in parallel. One with that stuff, and one without. Woppee. Is that great fun, or what?
So don't you dare tell me I'm just getting my post count up.
What have YOU done, except starting Yet Another Redundant Thread (TM) to whine about whiners? Helped a newbie lately? Did anything constructive for the community you claim to love and defend? Well, no. Just started yet another trolling thread to... whine. About whiners. But whine nevertheless. Does it serve any purpose other than to get your post count up and inflate your ego? Well, no.
As for Morganstern, how about rephrasing that to read "Some people think they're so Intelligent if they claim they can live with any problem or screw-up. Admitting that you have ANY problem would automatically mean you're not Intelligent enough to win the game on Deity, and that might lower your ranking. They also believe that posting a tip to help newbies, instead of an insulting 'you crybabies don't deserve to play Civ 3. Go play Power Puff Girls instead' would also imply they're not Intelligent enough." Because that's what half of the fanboy squad attitude seems to be. Trying to intimidate everyone into submission, on the sole unprovable claim that they're the only ones smart enough to win the game, and everyone else is just a dumb whiner.
And, oh, for the "whiners are kiddies" crowd: I'm 31 too. Care to try for another reason why I whine?
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Moraelin
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... unless you count stuff that's still written all over the OFFICIAL www.civ3.com site, and which I've based my purchase on, as a promise. Have a look at their own official list of Key Features on that site, and THEN tell me that nothing was promised. (And if you read some of the other BS on that site, it gets even more funny. No, wait, lemme rephrase that. It gets even LESS funny.)
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Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:16
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well I'll take your word for what is on that website. I never pay attention to company web sites. They are all about fluff. No real meaningful content.
perhaps I am too cynical. I expected civ3 to be a crappy game. I was pleasantly suprised it was even playable. People seemed to forget problems with SMAC when it came out. This is the same company. So I epected them to put out an inferior product. The days of microprose are gone. It is unreasonable to expect a game the quality of civ2 ever again. Microprose had everything going at the right time. Firaxis is a small gaming company, and I didn't expect them to have the resources to put in things like wonder movies etc (those require a large production capability). I'm not sayin cynicism is a good thing. But I just can't believe the expectations people had for civ3. A lot of time has passed since civ2. And gaming companies have gotten worse in that time for the most part.
And when they announced the deal with civ3 I was skeptical. I just didn't think they could pull it off. Orginally there was talk of an Activision/Firaxis team effort. Boy I couldn't imagine how bad that would have been. The terms in which Firaxis got the rights to civ3 seemed hokey to me. It put them in a bind with what they could do with the product. I doubt they had free reign with the liscence. I think it is time to put the civ series to rest unless they can produce a civilization game without any restrictions at all- including monetary and time restrictions.
Last edited by Dis on 20-12-2001 at 04:09
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Surgeon
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Oh no the whingers have taken over this thread and are attempting to drown us with spittle and tears...
Somebody send for the FBI...cough... it's too late for me ...gurgle...save the others...
Last edited by Surgeon on 20-12-2001 at 04:16
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Surgeon
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In all seriousness I dont like people dismissing others just because their post count is low. Mine is low but I have been playing civ1,2 & now 3 on and off for over 6 years!
I like the game, I think editors for a random game such as civ are nothing more than a nice but useless bonus, how many people use the editor? hardly any.
The reson 'newbies' come to these forums and start 'whingers are losers' threads is because they come here and see a bunch of people complaining like children. Its sick!
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Moraelin
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Either way, the point that I was trying to make is that some of us "whiners" also do our best to help more people get more enjoyment out of this game. You know, to get their money's worth and have a jolly good time.
While some of the "fans" do... what? Tell people to sell their copy on ebay, and go play Power Puff Girls instead.
Yeah, that has to be helping Firaxis's business. Let's have a lot of cheap games bought on e-bay, instead of from the publisher. And let's have more pissed off buyers, while we're at it. (Insulting someone who's had a problem is NOT the way to make them happy.) That's got to help make sure there'll be a Civ 4.
Yeah, right. With Holy Defenders like those, who needs enemies?
And I still maintain that Yet Another Duplicate Thread (TM) to whine about whiners is no better than Yet Another Duplicate Thread (TM) to whine about the game. In fact it's worse, since normal whine threads often do result in ideas or strategies or whatnot being posted. Threads like this are just flame bait. No more, no less.
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yin26
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This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:16
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Ah, yes. Well that's another story. 
Of course, I think you are basically right. Even the Gold Edition might not be much better than what we have now. I would like to argue against you that a patch can't fix the AI, though. Why not? I would think that now the game is 'in the wild,' Soren (if he is paying close attention) would have a lot to work with.
Then things like stacks and fan mods (made possible by the hopefully released complete editor) could make for a much better sense of speedy turns and deeper immersion.
Not to mention that Firaxis supposedly has an ace up its sleeve for MP ... though safe money says they won't deliver on that. Still, if they were to, come Gold Edition, it might be night and day.
Now, of course I could just do something else until then and not ride Firaxis here on these forums, but:
1) I think Firaxis deserves to be ridden. If they keep releasing games in this fashion, harsh criticism will finally be solved, I suppose, because they won't be solvent anymore. My and other people's messages are just warning calls. It's fun for me to see if they'll react proactively or bury their heads.
2) Since Firaxis likes to play deaf, maybe all this shouting on certain requests WILL make a difference. Can this be done more politely? Sure ... but ask Firaxis why they didn't creat that kind of environment? Frankly, I love to watch people reap what they sowed. At times like that, life seems sweet.
3) I find all of this highly entertaining. It's a textual soap-opera complete with a cast of characters and an uncertain resolution. I reserved my seats here over 2 years ago. I did my part. I'll watch the show till the very last second or until I leave in boredom. That you can count on. 
By the way, next time you plan on attacking me, at least get straight what I have said. At least do yourself that favor.
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GeorgeG
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Woodlands, TX
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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Oh Yin, you won't be going anywhere. . .
You're a Civer for life.
You were on the Alpha Centauri boards when I first started lurking on these things (just after SMAC), and I'm sure that you'll be around for a long time to come.
If I remember correctly, you provided substantial help to Firaxis by constructing a vast list of "things" that could improve the game - and with time SMACX came out (I hope I'm remembering this right, and not crediting you with someone elses hard work).
So no, Yin26 hasn't *just* complained. I believe that his input helped fix some of the many things that were bugged in SMAC(Please correct me if I'm confusing you with someone else Yin!).
My point is that polite criticism can have a positive effect on these games; I've watched it happen.
I find it aggravating that so many things seemed to have been lost that were quite nice in SMACX. (and yes, I'm sick of the "Its Civ 3, its new its different, its not Civ II or SMAC. Get over it." If an idea was good yesterday, its may still be good today.)
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Moraelin
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Morganstern, you must have mis-read me. I'm not saying that YOU said that. I'm saying it myself. Looking at the threads, the exact same thing you say about "whiners" can be said about a lot of fanboys just as well. I've read the "you're just whining because you can't beat the game" standard answer way too often, so don't tell me THOSE people aren't just showing off their "intelligence" and deliberately insulting other people's intelligence.
So dig this: whether I'm intelligent or dumb, doesn't have ANY relevance. Whether I can win the game or not, doesn't have ANY relevance.
What remains is that I've paid for this game based on some false claims on the www.civ3.site. Not based on something out of my imagination, not based on bits and pieces from this board. But what I actually found in the box was nowhere near what was promised. It was a sub-par effort all the way. Everything that was new, was either hyping a minor tweak, or a heavy handed uninspired implementation of what COULD have been a good idea, but ended up bad. And which in turn spawned even more design screw-ups, to cover for the first round of deffects in design, instead of fixing the root problem. (E.g., lobotomizing combat to cover up for the heavy handed resource implementation. And then saving the random seed as a last ditch attempt to cover for the lobotomized combat. And so on.) THAT is my whole point.
Last edited by Moraelin on 21-12-2001 at 00:55
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HalfLotus
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ATL, shorty.
Sep 2001
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by yin26
Frankly, I love to watch people reap what they sowed. At times like that, life seems sweet.
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How sad.
Last edited by HalfLotus on 21-12-2001 at 02:34
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Evil_Eric_4
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Oops wrong thread
I thought it said winners so I thought I'd check in.
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Code Monkey
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quote:
Originally posted by DaShi
Every consumer has the right to complain about their purchase, if they are unhappy with it. It is the primary method that they have to protect themselves from greed companies. And it is critical to the success of capitalism. If a company produces a defective product or treats its customers poorly, then it should be boycotted until it improves.
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Do you see Firaxis or Infogrammes listed anywhere on the credits for these boards? This is not the place for the crusade of whining that some people are involved in in. If a consumer has a problem with a product, by all means complain to the manufacturer and/or developer. Go to every gamesite that allows users to review games and post an intelligent review that points out what was so wrong with the game for you. Maybe even, in a reasonble manner, take part in some threads on gameboards in newsgroups constructively discussing what you found to be a problem with the game.
But, the aggression and mindless repetition from many posters accomplishes nothing on this board or anywhere else. Infogrammes, who is the largest culprit with unpolished features and missing features most likely doesn't even read the boards, and they certainly don't have any representatives here. Firaxis has said that they simply killfile anyone who starts making aggressive and personal assaults on the board and I don't even give people that much leeway. So what's being accomplished? The real whiners are venting electrons into a internet blackhole; niether Infogrammes or Firaxis is getting any kind of message, the people who are thinking about buying the game aren't reading a board like this, and those of us who bought the game and are reasonably satisfied are tuning them out after 5th post that repeats the exact same points the poster was ranting about 15 posts earlier.
No one has any right to post here, it's a priviledge afforded to us by some dubious capitalist market mechanics and you should at least put some thought into a message as to whether it's saying anything of value in the thread or if you're just trying to vent largely misplaced frustration and anger.
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DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Code Monkey
Do you see Firaxis or Infogrammes listed anywhere on the credits for these boards? This is not the place for the crusade of whining that some people are involved in in. If a consumer has a problem with a product, by all means complain to the manufacturer and/or developer. Go to every gamesite that allows users to review games and post an intelligent review that points out what was so wrong with the game for you. Maybe even, in a reasonble manner, take part in some threads on gameboards in newsgroups constructively discussing what you found to be a problem with the game. |
This is where the community is. Firaxis won't host their own forums. They know that they will get complaints, and they don't know how to properly deal with them. Frankly, the only people who can say what can and cannot be posted on these forums are MarkG, DanQ, and the mods. And I doubt that they'll limit the people's right to complain.
quote:
But, the aggression and mindless repetition from many posters accomplishes nothing on this board or anywhere else. |
Well, there are a lot of angry fans. And they have to fight with those who blindly believe that CivIII is the best game ever and try stifle their free speech.
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Infogrammes, who is the largest culprit with unpolished features and missing features most likely doesn't even read the boards, and they certainly don't have any representatives here. |
Passing the buck is a classic tactic.
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Firaxis has said that they simply killfile anyone who starts making aggressive and personal assaults on the board and I don't even give people that much leeway. |
I think that Firaxis has forgotten its place. The consumer should be the position of power. They can killfile all they want. It creates woderful PR disasters. Meanwhile, we can boycott.
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So what's being accomplished? The real whiners are venting electrons into a internet blackhole; niether Infogrammes or Firaxis is getting any kind of message, the people who are thinking about buying the game aren't reading a board like this, and those of us who bought the game and are reasonably satisfied are tuning them out after 5th post that repeats the exact same points the poster was ranting about 15 posts earlier. |
I didn't buy the game because of what I read on this board and others. I expected Firaxis to put out an unfinished game. Hell, I expected it to crash on the 100th turn. Firaxis has already developed a reputation for not caring about the fans. The posts here confirmed enough of my suspicions about the game to convince me that it was a waste of my money. Maybe in a few years, after a few patches, I may buy it. But this forum has saved me a lot of time, money, and frustration.
quote:
No one has any right to post here, it's a priviledge afforded to us by some dubious capitalist market mechanics and you should at least put some thought into a message as to whether it's saying anything of value in the thread or if you're just trying to vent largely misplaced frustration and anger. |
Yes, but they can post whatever they want. It's up to the owners and mods to decide what stays and what gets deleted. So far they have done a great job of creating a forum that allows both sides to express their views about CivIII. Frankly, if people want to vent frustration. So be it. You can complain about it. If you want to sink to insults. Go ahead, but I doubt the moderators will be so forgiving about that.
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20-12-2001 00:30
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