28-12-2001 03:14									#31
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Isn't it amazing that no matter what the topic, every thread must result in a flame war of some sort? Hell, every forum on Apolyton has more flamers than San Francisco.

I sometimes cheat on SP..... in many games, Civ included. I always play the game 'legit' at first and once the 'vanilla' version becomes a bit bland, I 'cheat' to make the game more exciting. Does that make me any less of a person? Why the hell should anybody care what I do in SP? It effects you in no way. Whether or not a person chooses to take an 'unfair' advantage over a hapless AI is up to them. That's why there are different difficulty levels. Are people who play Chieften cheaters if they play a weaker AI than those who play on Diety?

I refuse to mention anyone's name here since it will merely result in another blind 'rebuttal' ignoring anything else in the post. Get over it people, few people actually know anyone in this forum in the real world.....don't take everything personal.

	30-12-2001 02:47									#32
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quote: Why the hell should anybody care what I do in SP?

For what now, the third time? Fourth time? Nobody gives a dookey what you do in SP. We've made a different choice for ourselves. That's all.

	05-01-2002 00:05									#33
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I'd just like to pipe up with a few points:

1. For the record - I cheat on occassion, too. Because, quite honestly, when the damned AI (which, by design, cheats) starts taking out my empire, I get pissed and rather enjoy the instant gratification of being able to park 20 tanks outside their capitol in four turns or less.

2. The premises of this debate are pretty stupid. It gets dragged out into this long-winded moral argument that has little real-world consequence. However, if it can be approached from an entirely recreational standpoint (it is, after all, a game), I suppose it has its entertainment value; after all, I took the time to read it.

3. Cheating at a computer game does not make you a bad person. To suggest a kind of slippery-slope logic that implies cheating at a computer game leads to outright moral corruption is like saying swatting a fly is the first step towards a career as a serial killer.

4. If everyone here really believes that "what you do in a single-player game is your own business," then why are we having this conversation in the first place?

5. If NOT cheating makes you feel better about yourself, I'm happy for you. We all have to be empowered by something, and if resisting the temptation to alter the outcome of a programmed simulation designed to entertain in the first place makes you feel good, well, then you're getting your money's worth.

Just my two cents... and hardly worth that. ;-)

	05-01-2002 03:13									#34
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I cheat constantly in everything I do. I am fraudulent, dangerous and bad to know.

	05-01-2002 03:21									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Special_Olympic I cheat constantly in everything I do. I am fraudulent, dangerous and bad to know.

*gasp!* I bet you even remove those little tags off of mattresses too! It appears that Libertarian's hypothesis is true. It always starts small, like asking for 999999999999 gold/turn, then the next thing you know, you're sending millions to their death in a Siberian Gulag. Repent! Repent!

	06-01-2002 03:47									#36
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ummmm....
I paid for the game, therefore it is mine.
If it is mine, I can change the rules.
All the players *know* I am changing the rules before the game starts, therefore I am not cheating. I am merely starting with an advantage.
This is exactly analagous to golfing or bowling and using "handicaps" to adjust the score.

	21-08-2002 23:21									#37
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by Libertarian

The same character trait that dismisses any concern over cheating can as easily dismiss any concern at all. Whether he's cheating at a game, cheating on a test, or cheating to breach a contract, a man who cheats has, in my view, decided that he is worthless. I cannot trust such a man to judge me as anything greater than himself.

That says it all and very well indeed.

	21-08-2002 23:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Moraelin 3) Why do "cheaters" feel a need to hide that fact? It's not like we did anything wrong to anyone, in the first place.

I think that is the only problem I have with this "cheating" stuff. As long as people come to a forum and make claims of accomplishments and do not report the short cuts they took, it is weak. If they do as many do, say I use this or that cheat, I have no problem. This lets me know was the terms are and I can understand what is happening. It is when one does reloads or what have you and does not disclose that I find them lame. It can be fun to use cheat codes as a lark or a test or whatever. Use them all the time is another story. I remember once using one that gave a car in AoE and it was very funny (for awhile). Not something to use regularly. I personally do not care about starting new games until you get one you like. It is no more than a random roll. I am too lasy to do much of it and if I see I am on an island I may abandon and start over (hey I am weak as well). I can respect those who never do any form of cheating, I am not that good.

	21-08-2002 23:44									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Elucidus To derive trust from someone because of actions in a game is ludicrous. I don't cheat that often in games, but you know what? Sometimes, I just want to blow things up and cause havoc. A buddy of mine, who has more integrity than anyone I know, cheats all of the time in SP. You know what? I trust him with my life; even more so I trust him with my son's life and have many times. In fact integrity is one of my core values and something I hold with the highest regard.

If you and your friend are not trying to pretent you never cheat then you are not being dishonest. If one cheats and pretents they do not......

Just remeber al of the people who trust those priest and cardinals.

	21-08-2002 23:50									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Special_Olympic I cheat constantly in everything I do. I am fraudulent, dangerous and bad to know.

That was very funny and thanks for the laugh.

	21-08-2002 23:57									#41
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Tass, actually cheating is not what makes one worthless, it is lying about that does it. I have been known to cheat, but not to pretend I did not.

	22-08-2002 00:12									#42
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Who cares if someone cheats in their own single-player game? Multiplayer is a different story, but the point of a game is to have fun.

The AI cheats. Rampantly.

	22-08-2002 00:52									#43
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I think I answered that question. No one cares (most anyway) as long as you do not hide the fact when you talk about your exploits. Then comes the question of what is cheating in the first place? Restarts (not to me)?
Reloading for battles or huts (surely). Example I see is peopel getting a settler out of a hut as non expansionist by reloading. Worst of all to me is using the editor to alter traits, maps whatever. Again that is fine with me until you come to the board and talk about that game and never let on that you did that. Now one may wonder how such feats as are list occurred, never knowing about the extra resources you gave yourself or whatever boost you took. Taking them is not the issue, pretending you never did is.

	22-08-2002 02:04									#44
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 If you and your friend are not trying to pretent you never cheat then you are not being dishonest. If one cheats and pretents they do not...... Just remeber al of the people who trust those priest and cardinals.

Well I did say we cheat from time to time, but that has nothing to do with honesty. Now of course, who exactly are we cheating, the AI? No, because it doesn't have a consciousness. We can't be cheating ourselves either as we are enhancing our enjoyment, I believe that was my point so long ago.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, though, once you lie you lost your integrity and are then becoming less trustworthy each lie thereafter. Good god, I am writing like I am at work, sorry but I am. Enjoy!

	22-08-2002 02:18									#45
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I do not think I am in any disagrement with you. Cheating is in many things is dishonest, in a game probably not, but misrepresentation is, that is all I am saying. Do anything you want in a game and enjoy, I do. I just disclose that fact when I talk about a game that I did so in.
Can I be excused now, I promise to be good (sort of).

	22-08-2002 03:05									#46
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Hmm.. This is an interesting topic. I believe that you can't "cheat" yourself, you can only cheat other people. When you "cheat/enhance" the game for your own enjoyment, that is not cheating. When you brag to your friends that you won the same game on diety by turn 10BC without disclosing that you bent the rules, that is cheating.