10-01-2002 09:30									#31
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i think that this is a last ditch bid for Mac before they either declare bankruptcy or bill gates secretly takes over. seriously, mac is in deep water due to many programs working more efficiently on pc's and macintosh's shitty customer service.
For example, my friend purchased a dual flat monitor mac that was supposed to be that fastest on the market. It got to him but wouldn't work and he sent it back to be fixed. He's been wrangling with them for the past few months because they no longer make the parts. Because this comp is for his company, he's obviously losing money and each person he talks to on the phone just feeds him lines so it's very difficult. It's getting to the point where his lawyer may be stepping in soon if they don't fix his computer and send it back soon.
Also, hasn't bill gates approched mac to help keep them afloat? if so...there has to be a catch ..like mac begining to use microsoft programs. Thus..that will make mac diehards have to know how to use pc programs so by the time mac really does go under, they will naturally switch over to pc's and leave linux hurting (the only other microsoft competitor besides mac).
how far off do you think this is?

	10-01-2002 09:34									#32
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quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin i think that this is a last ditch bid for Mac before they either declare bankruptcy or bill gates secretly takes over. seriously, mac is in deep water due to many programs working more efficiently on pc's and macintosh's shitty customer service. For example, my friend purchased a dual flat monitor mac that was supposed to be that fastest on the market. It got to him but wouldn't work and he sent it back to be fixed. He's been wrangling with them for the past few months because they no longer make the parts. Because this comp is for his company, he's obviously losing money and each person he talks to on the phone just feeds him lines so it's very difficult. It's getting to the point where his lawyer may be stepping in soon if they don't fix his computer and send it back soon.

I eagerly await Wiglaf's thread talking about how people should not buy Macs due to the horrible customer service and the degradation in quality. (He made a thread about Dell for something less than that )

quote: Also, hasn't bill gates approched mac to help keep them afloat? if so...there has to be a catch ..like mac begining to use microsoft programs. Thus..that will make mac diehards have to know how to use pc programs so by the time mac really does go under, they will naturally switch over to pc's and leave linux hurting (the only other microsoft competitor besides mac). how far off do you think this is?

Yeah, MS "generously" bailed out Apple computer a while back. Surprise, surprise that MacOS now comes with IE only, and Office and whatnot still comes out on the Mac.

	10-01-2002 09:37									#33
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see...
bill gates is gonna take over the world....
think about it though...if mac users all become trained on MS programs, that will make them less likely to use Linux if and when Mac crumbles. It IS quite brilliant really. lol.

	10-01-2002 10:55									#34
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Come on Asher, I thought you were smart enough not to believe this conspiracy crap. The fact is, Bill Gates could've destroyed Apple a long time ago if he had really wanted to. He didn't because he gets more good out of keeping Apple around. He can sell tons of MS software to Apple users and he maintains a company he can point to as "competition". Maintaining the appearance of actual competition is important to a company like MS that likes to abuse its monopoly in operating systems to expand into other areas. Not to mention that Apple comes up with many innovative ideas that are later co-opted by MS. I may hate Bill, but even I must admit that he is an evil genius.

	10-01-2002 10:58									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Come on Asher, I thought you were smart enough not to believe this conspiracy crap. The fact is, Bill Gates could've destroyed Apple a long time ago if he had really wanted to. He didn't because he gets more good out of keeping Apple around. He can sell tons of MS software to Apple users and he maintains a company he can point to as "competition". Maintaining the appearance of actual competition is important to a company like MS that likes to abuse its monopoly in operating systems to expand into other areas. Not to mention that Apple comes up with many innovative ideas that are later co-opted by MS. I may hate Bill, but even I must admit that he is an evil genius.

When did I believe in that "conspiracy crap"?

I agree with what you say.
Although I don't think Bill Gates is evil at all, just a capitalist. If you think capitalists are evil...well, that's another thing. Many people hate to admit it, but most of this deep hatred for Bill comes from jealousy.

	10-01-2002 11:14									#36
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I thought you were buying into devilmunchkin's theory on Apple's "imminent bankruptcy" or Bill Gates "secret takeover" of Apple. You of all people should know that neither is going to happen anytime soon. I guess I misunderstood.

Anyway, I don't really think Bill is evil. I just dislike him because of his business practices. I support capitalism on the whole, but I do like a little Teddy Roosevelt style trust-busting every now and then. God knows Microsoft needs to have a little humility beat into them with a "big stick".

	10-01-2002 11:16									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Anyway, I don't really think Bill is evil. I just dislike him because of his business practices. I support capitalism on the whole, but I do like a little Teddy Roosevelt style trust-busting every now and then. God knows Microsoft needs to have a little humility beat into them with a "big stick".

The irony here is the court system is the only party humiliated by this whole thing so far. Judge Jackson... What a character

	10-01-2002 11:33									#38
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I happen to like Judge Jackson. He's blunt and to the point, qualities that I like in a person (and a judge). His findings of fact have also not been overturned; it seems that the appeals court disapproved of his personality, not his judicial decision. Oh well, we'll find out what the next chapter in this saga is in March (sorry MS).

	10-01-2002 11:36									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I happen to like Judge Jackson. He's blunt and to the point, qualities that I like in a person (and a judge). His findings of fact have also not been overturned; it seems that the appeals court disapproved of his personality, not his judicial decision. Oh well, we'll find out what the next chapter in this saga is in March (sorry MS).

You've got to be kidding me.
Judge Jackson is a biased fool who made ludicrous comments outside of court. He's a jackass, bluntly. Hardly judicial material. No way around it at all.

MS will win anyway. It's just MS vs. half of the original states now, and MS has George W. in their back pocket and lawyers up the yin-yang.

Jackson was an embarassment to the entire American judicial system. At least that's how it looks to non-Americans.

	10-01-2002 11:50									#40
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Like I said, people disapprove of his personality. The fact remains that his findings of fact have not been overturned, so he must be "judicial material". The DC circuit court was not friendly to him at all, but even they couldn't find faults with his decision. Maybe he is a jackass, but I like a guy who speaks his mind and isn't intimidated by the largest corporation in the world. You don't have to be popular to be a judge (at least that's what four years of pre-law classes have taught me).

quote: MS will win anyway. It's just MS vs. half of the original states now, and MS has George W. in their back pocket and lawyers up the yin-yang.

This may very well be true. The DOJ doesn't seem too interested in continuing this. I wouldn't underestimate the state's however, especially with California on their side. California is probably the most powerful state in the union and I think they will prove a tough opponent to MS, especially with all the Silicon Valley companies pressuring them.

quote: Jackson was an embarassment to the entire American judicial system. At least that's how it looks to non-Americans.

Speaking of non-Americans, the EU hasn't been to kind to MS in the past either. Don't they have some sort of anti-trust action pending as well? The American government may be MS's best ally right now.

	10-01-2002 11:57									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Like I said, people disapprove of his personality. The fact remains that his findings of fact have not been overturned, so he must be "judicial material". The DC circuit court was not friendly to him at all, but even they couldn't find faults with his decision. Maybe he is a jackass, but I like a guy who speaks his mind and isn't intimidated by the largest corporation in the world. You don't have to be popular to be a judge (at least that's what four years of pre-law classes have taught me).

MS isn't the largest corporation in the world. It just has the healthiest balance sheet.
Jackson was said to display bias by the Appeals Court, the only reason his entire decision wasn't overturned was to save time. His screwups may have let MS totally off the hook of a breakup, though.

quote: This may very well be true. The DOJ doesn't seem too interested in continuing this. I wouldn't underestimate the state's however, especially with California on their side. California is probably the most powerful state in the union and I think they will prove a tough opponent to MS, especially with all the Silicon Valley companies pressuring them.

And what can these 10 states do, at best? Fine MS?
Even if the 10 states get their way with MS (not very likely, IMO), it'll be a slap on the wrist if anything.

quote: Speaking of non-Americans, the EU hasn't been to kind to MS in the past either. Don't they have some sort of anti-trust action pending as well? The American government may be MS's best ally right now.

I don't follow European politics.
I do know the EU is after Intel and MS, but they haven't been successful. I also know AMD is lobbying the EU against Intel and Sun & Co are lobbying against Microsoft.

The main problem with this case is that Sun and Netscape (AOL/TimeWarner now) are hypocritical. They stand before judges whining about how MS bundling IE with Windows killed their browser business, while they keep releasing new browsers out to the market place regularly. They also start bundling things like "Join AOL!" with AIM/ICQ/Winamp, clearly bundling to try to keep themselves in the #1 slot for ISPs. Then they also try to say that MS is ultimately hurting consumers with these practices, yet there's no real evidence to that yet. In fact, before MS entered the scene, people were paying $50 a pop for a basic internet webbrowser. MS caused that to become free for consumers.

There's basically a lot of logic errors in their case, and they're relying entirely on technicalities on a law that was intended for resource distribution companies and railways, not Operating Systems.

	10-01-2002 12:10									#42
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I agree with you about AOL/Time Warner, but I don't think we should let Microsoft off the hook just because AOL abuses its power too. Both of these corporations need to be brought up on anti-trust violations.

Anyway, my point in this whole discussion is that MS is not out of the woods yet by any stretch of the imagination. The remaining 10 states are a threat. If my knowledge of the appeals process is correct (and it should be as I had the class last semester), the federal government can't reach an agreement with Microsoft as long as the states are still dissenting or until the states exhaust all of their appeals. Needless to say, this could drag on for a long time yet and the dissenting states could force the government to take a much harder line with MS. I also wouldn't write off the EU, as they have seemed to be much more hostile to MS than the Clinton administration ever was. The EU is the second largest economy in the world, so Microsoft can't afford to write it off if the EU finds against it. Microsoft is in better shape than they were after Judge Jackson's decision, but they certainly haven't won yet. This case could change directions again.

	10-01-2002 12:19									#43
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About the EU: What would happen if MS decided to cut its losses and forbid software sales in the EU?

You never know with Bill...

If the EU takes an unreasonably hard stance and looks like they'd win, Bill may just tell them to piss off and save the legal costs, forgoing that (albeit very large) market. That is, unless they cave.

	10-01-2002 12:25									#44
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I really don't think that it would be possible for Microsoft to write off the EU. It is simply too big a market to abandon and would provide a staging ground for real competition if MS were to leave it. If Bill abandoned Europe, he might wake up to find a British or German software company entrenched in Europe and threatening to spread into America. Who knows, maybe if Microsoft abandoned Europe, Steve Jobs would move in and start Apple's rise to dominance!

Well, maybe not. But MS still can't write off Europe. It would probably destroy the company (lots of lost revenues).

	10-01-2002 12:27									#45
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What's the worst the EU could do anyway?
Fine the company?

	10-01-2002 12:32									#46
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The EU can't break up the company like the US government can. It can do pretty much anything else though, including fines, requiring the removal of certain software features in Windows, or requiring MS to reveal the source code of it applications. Pretty serious stuff, though not as bad as a breakup would be. If MS refuses to meet the demands, then the EU could ban MS from selling its products in Europe, which would really hurt MS.

	10-01-2002 12:34									#47
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Open source will absolutely NEVER happen with Microsoft. It'd ruin their business, it's akin to giving it away for free for them. If the EU ordered that, I guarantee you MS would just withdraw from Europe. The revenue losses from EU will be far less than that of having their source code available globally.

It sounds like all the EU could do is fine the company (not a big deal) or restrict what they do with the software for EU and EU only. So it won't affect me much either way...

	10-01-2002 12:39									#48
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Here's a good article about it on CNN.com.

http://money.cnn.com/2001/12/19/tec...crosoft_review/

quote: While the EC does not have the power to order a breakup of the company, it could nonetheless impose a harsh remedy should it find Microsoft guilty of violating European antitrust laws. In addition to stiff fines - which by law could amount to as much as 10 percent of the company's total revenue - the commission could order Microsoft to remove some features from Windows and even force it to reveal the underlying source code of Windows to regulatory scrutiny, Waller said.

Ten percent of revevues is nothing to sneeze at. But you are right about it not affecting Canada. I don't know what the Canadian government thinks about this, but they'll probably just follow America's lead (like they do with everything else).

	10-01-2002 12:42									#49
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I'm pretty sure the 10% of the revenue figure is for the EU and EU only.

Or perhaps maybe even only 10% of the revenue for "Microsoft Europe" or whatever. That'd be almost funny.

I don't see how it could legally be possible for the EU to take revenue MS earned from regions like North America...

	10-01-2002 12:48									#50
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I really don't know what the law says in this instance. Logically, I think that the EU would be limited to Microsoft's European revenues only. However, Microsoft is a multi-national corporation and may be subject to wider ranging sanctions than I am aware of. I don't take International Law until next year, so I'll have to get back to you with a definitive answer. I think MS is more worried about the other sanctions anyway; god knows they have enough cash on hand to handle almost any type of fine.

	10-01-2002 13:01									#51
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Anyway, let's get this thread back on topic. I really like the new iMac. I wish it had a bigger screen (15" is kinda small) and a G5 in it (yeah right) but otherwise it seems pretty great. If they can get a 1 GHz processor in it, I'll probably pick one up sometime in the next year or two. I'd prefer a G5 PowerMac, but I just can't afford that right now so the iMac seems like my best option. Unless one of you guys wants to sell me a Dell.... come on Steve... uh I meant Asher.

	10-01-2002 13:11									#52
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I think the current iMacs are still way overpriced for the technology inside them. You're paying a lot for a rather crappy LCD on a stylish stand.

The hardware inside is about on par with PC speeds of 2 years ago. You can get an AthlonXP system for the same price that's probably 50% faster.

	10-01-2002 13:18									#53
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Unlike Wiglaf, I readily agree with you that the G4 chips are now outdated. I hope the G5 will remedy this. That being said, I buy computers for different reasons than you. I don't play PC games, so processor speed isn't really that important to me. I buy Macs for the OS, not because I think they are superior technologically. If OS X ran on an AMD processor, I might consider switching. Until that happens, however, I'm going to keep buying from Apple. They are a little overpriced (though it is getting better) but I like the Mac OS enough to pay more on the hardware. Plus those iMacs just look so damn cool!

	10-01-2002 14:20									#54
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really why doesn't apple try to come to an agreement with AMD or Intel? if Steve Jobs had of announed that the iMac would have an AthlonXP or a P4 cpu with either 266 or 333 DDR ram at close to the same price i bet there would have been twice as much buzz

	10-01-2002 15:54									#55
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There was a rumor awhile ago that Apple was pissed off at Motorola for the G4 and were threatening to go to Intel. I don't know if this was ever a serious threat, however. I don't think you'll see an AMD or Intel chip in a Mac for two reasons.

1. Mac OS is optimized for the PPC chip. I'm no expert on this (ask Asher if you want to know the technical stuff) but I think it would be difficult to change the MacOS to run on a different processor. (Do Intel chips even have AltiVec?)

2. Microsoft wouldn't allow it. Microsoft likes to keep Apple around as some token "competition" but they certainly don't want Apple to become too competitive. The higher prices and slower processors of Apple computers effectively keep Apple from ever truly challenging Microsoft in the consumer market. Intel and AMD need Microsoft to survive, so they'll do whatever Bill wants. Even if Intel or AMD was interested, I don't think Apple would do it and risk pissing off Microsoft. Apple can't survive without Microsoft; if Bill cancels all Microsoft software for the Mac (especially Office) you can kiss Apple goodbye.

	10-01-2002 20:07									#56
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quote: i think that this is a last ditch bid for Mac before they either declare bankruptcy or bill gates secretly takes over. seriously, mac is in deep water due to many programs working more efficiently on pc's and macintosh's shitty customer service.

Apple has between 6 and 9 billion (with a "B") dollars in the bank; they're not going bankrupt.

	10-01-2002 20:28									#57
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Now lets get back to that Wiggy/Asher debate:

I am going to have to side with Asher on this one Wiggy, for one reason: Apple shows performance ratings from programs optimized for Macs. It is a fact that the G4 is significantly slower than the Intel and much slower than the AMD. Those tests Apple puts out are as misleading as it comes and the true bullshit. Game performance, from the few games out there for mac, is horrible. If you to use a few select graphics programs, optimized for macs, then go with the Mac but that is about it. But if you want a solid system for games and just about everything else go with the AMD series.

In the 80s, when Apple released those older computers, they had a chance to take over the market. But they made on mistake: To not allow companies to build Apple Computers. You know companies like Dell, for example. By not doing so, they basically pulled the rugs underneath themselves. Apple itself was the only one building the computers and that left them with nothing.

	10-01-2002 23:13									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten 1. Mac OS is optimized for the PPC chip. I'm no expert on this (ask Asher if you want to know the technical stuff) but I think it would be difficult to change the MacOS to run on a different processor. (Do Intel chips even have AltiVec?)

It'd be incredibly easy for them to port Mac OS X to the PC. In fact, the kernel (main part of the OS) is freely available for download for the PC under the name 'Darwin'. It acts just like all of the other BSDs, though.

Apple could probably take 2 months and get their (rather small) additions to Mac OS X running fast and stable on PCs. Earlier Mac OSes would be a huge pain to port, though.

quote: 2. Microsoft wouldn't allow it. Microsoft likes to keep Apple around as some token "competition" but they certainly don't want Apple to become too competitive. The higher prices and slower processors of Apple computers effectively keep Apple from ever truly challenging Microsoft in the consumer market. Intel and AMD need Microsoft to survive, so they'll do whatever Bill wants. Even if Intel or AMD was interested, I don't think Apple would do it and risk pissing off Microsoft. Apple can't survive without Microsoft; if Bill cancels all Microsoft software for the Mac (especially Office) you can kiss Apple goodbye.

I think this is a large reason.

I think the largest reason is Apple loves to have supreme control over the hardware and the software. Moving over to the PC basically removes all control you had over your hardware. Costs become cheaper, there's tons of suppliers, not just Apple. They're sticking with PowerPC instead of x86 because they enjoy being different, and their whole business model depends on them being different.

	10-01-2002 23:16									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Kyle Apple has between 6 and 9 billion (with a "B") dollars in the bank; they're not going bankrupt.

According to this, Apple only has about 2.1B in Cash, with 5.248B in total assets as of Q3 2001.

	10-01-2002 23:26									#60
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Which is still very very healthy, looking that they have only 1.6 bn debt, and around 5 BN current assets

They are not going down just yet.

But they are second rate company performance wise, however if you wnat a good looking computer that does everything (that normal peolple, unlike us, use) that is plenty of power, plus it looks good whatever anyone says. At least it has style and is easier to use than an average PC (that is at least what they say).

So not for computer enthusiasts, but for grandmoters, picky women and that sort I say. They should sell another 5 million of these I reckon in the next few years.