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Gary Thomas
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New Zealand
Mar 2001
time: 17:17
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I overlooked the discussion in this thread, so my comments will cover a fair bit of territory.
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My immediate question for now is what is the best format to use for these messages. I need to know what I can use for D7, and also would like to have an idea of where we're headed longer-term.
1. Can they be HTML, or must they be plain text for now? Long-term I think we've agreed they should be HTML. |
I have an event display action which does all this. Any HTML in the text will be reproduced in the resulting dialog. It does not affect the computer code.
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2. Must all messages be in individual files, or can we use a tagging system to put them all in an xml file? The former would work for now, but I think may quickly get out of hand. The latter is my long-term preference, but not based on a huge amount of thought. |
I am not quite sure what is intended here. The messages will be, for the moment (hated phrase) embedded in the scenario xml file. Later I would hope they would be a tag reference to a message oin a resource bundle, for internationalization purposes.
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Thanks Laurent, that's good to know. I'll assume that's the way it'll be handled for now, pending hearing from Gary. I hope to have some examples soon that I can post and ask people if they're heading in the right direction for what we need for D7. |
The format will be:
<action><message>The text of the message</message></action>
for a simple information message. I can provide a yes/no dialog, but that would also have to set a condition.
I am having something of a conceptual problem with conditions - something has to test them or they won't do anything. That part of the system is rather unclear at present.
On the subject of tooltips, they are not help messages, as Laurent says, they should be brief. The EU system is different and more akin to the information box system. My personal preference is for short tooltips, but a right button menu which always includes a help message.
Cheers
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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Thanks Gary, that's just the info I needed.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Thomas
The messages will be, for the moment (hated phrase) embedded in the scenario xml file. Later I would hope they would be a tag reference to a message oin a resource bundle, for internationalization purposes. |
Sounds good, but its gonna be a looong file for D7
quote:
for a simple information message. I can provide a yes/no dialog, but that would also have to set a condition.
I am having something of a conceptual problem with conditions - something has to test them or they won't do anything. That part of the system is rather unclear at present. |
K, just let me know when you've got it figgured out, and what the tags are... For a first shot I think a "turn number" event tag is the most important since it'll allow at least a "slide show" type tutorial. We will also maybe need some definition of a turn 1a (first shown) vs turn 2b message.
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On the subject of tooltips, they are not help messages, as Laurent says, they should be brief. |
I settled on short tooltips for now. The code I just sent has them for the EconOrdersFrame. The tutorial will have to do the rest for now...
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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What we need for Events, a starter list.
I don't recall seeing a spec, but I assume events are composed of triggers and actions. Triggers are what the event looks for to activate itself, and actions are what it does. I'll try to get 'em in more or less priority order. This is a stream-of-burble list, so I"m sure I've missed things.
Triggers:
1. "turn number" We will also maybe need some definition of a turn 1a (first shown) vs turn 2b trigger (once 2a's action completed).
2. Population attained = x
3. Square visited or newly controlled by civ XXX (loss of control/gaining control of)
4. Economic Special discovered (can use 3 if map is predetermined)
5. First military unit built, or first of given type
6. First of a given type of economic infrastructure built (farm, road,...)
7. Meet first other civ, or meet particular civ
Actions:
1. Show an HTML dialog box, optionally with a choice for the player to make the choice is between two defined actions
2. Destroy infrastructure (or change its level)
3. Createte / Destroy units. Acutally, creating units is also very very used in scenarios.
4. Change terrain -- also used a lot, including destroying cities therein.
5. Enable or disable an infrastructure class in the econ gui
6. Enable or disable ROI characteristic in econ gui
7. Change diplomatic status
[edit] included Laurent's suggestions from post below
Last edited by Mark_Everson on 19-05-2002 at 19:40
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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There was a thread about events here . There are a few events summed up in it, so you can add:
Triggers:
Square newly controlled by civ XXX (loss of control/gaining control of)
Actions:
Destroy infrastructure (or change its level)
Destroy units. Acutally, creating units is also very very used in scenarios. Changing terrain is also used a lot, including destroying cities therein.
Win.
Lose.
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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This is a cross-post of what I said to Dale in another thread on how to get him going on a tutorial for D7. This is the natural home for my points and any discussion on the topic.
[To Dale] Here is what I think you should do.
1. Download and play D6 and read the manual
2. Give any feedback you feel important on those
3. I will get you the "Clash testbed" code which has an early version of D7 that you can start writing a tutorial on.
4. You should skim the
Planning for Demos 7 & 8 thread to see the things we wanted the tutorial to do. The plan has evolved somewhat since the beginning, so read more carefully near the end.
5. Also look over the Documentation: Manuals and Tutorials thread, which is the main place for discussion of what the tutorials should have.
6. Once you get a chance to discuss what approach you'd like to take, and gotten some feedback, post an example of a few of the html blocks you would like to use for the tutorial, and what triggers them.
7. If you can't do 1-6 within the next 10 days or so, then I will need to take over the job, because Demo 7 can't wait forever for the tutorial...
After 6, try a draft of a complete tutorial for the Dawn scenario.
This job should get much more interesting for you with demo 8, for which I would like to have a map editor, and the capability for you to make up your own tutorial scenarios, and mods!
If you think you can't do this job at any time, Please let me know, so that I can start in on doing it myself. There isn't a lot of extra time to get the tutorial done considering the work needed.
I'm going to cross-post this in the Documentation thread, since that's where it really belongs. We should continue the discussion there.
Hope you can make this work! (Especially since I hate doing it :evilgrin
Mark
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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Hey Dale:
Glad to hear you are getting into this! I've got one issue with your approach though, in that you are ignoring the overall plan of making Dawn a tutorial scenario. I know that you don't agree with the slow-start tutorial philosophy as expressed in the Dawn scenario. Nonetheless, it is what pretty much the whole team agreed we should use for the tutorial. (Although many of us would like to spice it up a bit, as you can see from the discussion.) I'm also a bit concerned that if you go off designing your own tutorial scenario from scratch, that you might run out of time and leave us with no tutorial whatsoever  .
So here's what I propose to bridge the difference between your desires/plan and the overall plan. First, do a little bit of the "introduce the interface" type tutorial frames for the Dawn scenario. Those should largely be able to be carried over to your preferred scenario anyway. This will give you something of substance as in what I had in my 6 above that you can show the group early. In parallel with that you can start designing your scenario and the tutorial you want to write for it. Again, most of the description of interface and introduction to model stuff will be common between the Dawn-based tutorial and the one you are doing per your spec. Since the Dawn-based tutorial will be simpler, I'd hope you could have that one pretty much finished first, while moving ahead on your handcrafted one. Does that sound like a workable compromise to you?
Catch you later,
Mark
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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Here it is, just let me know what you think in terms of:
Too much, too little per turn?
Right depth in terms of features explained, too shallow, too deep?
Does the "story line" add enough given the screen room deditcated to it, should there be more or less...?
I'm really just getting started, so if you want a different approach, Now is the time to say so!
Dawn Tutorial Message Windows!
Note, I expect to put the advisor's comments in italics, or use some other means to distinguish them from the generic explanation text.
Opening screen:
Welcome
Thanks for trying out the Clash of Civilizations Demo 7! This version of the game is a demo of our design concepts. That’s so that we can get early suggestions from anyone who’s interested on what is working well, and what needs to be done differently. The demo is an alpha version that is maybe 10% of the way along to the final game. The most important feedback you can give the team is telling us if our approach for different parts of Clash seems to be going in the right direction or not!
Trigger: Begin Game.
Objective: None
Buttons: Next
Objective 1: Settle a Village (Screen 1)
“From the Chief Advisor:
As the leader of our people you must guide us to greatness in science, diplomacy, culture, economy, government and expansion. With my help, your humble Chief Advisor Juninga, you will do this.
Our goal is to settle this land and grow our people both in numbers and military strength. It is only through such strength that we can protect our people against the rampaging barbarians are rumored to be coming.
At present we have 5000 people who are currently being protected by our warrior horde unit. First we must find a suitable location to settle.”
Trigger: Begin Game.
Objective: None
Buttons: Next
Objective 1: (Screen 2)
“From the Chief Advisor:
The large window on the right which fills most of the screen is the Map Window, which represents the world as we know it. At the top left is the Units Window with the information about the units in the currently selected square on the map.
As you can see from the wagon icon on our warrior unit, that unit has settlers, our people, traveling with them. Right-click on our warriors in the Unit Window now. You will see that one of the available unit orders is, at the bottom, is Colonize. Click on this order and then OK to confirm the construction of a new settlement with our 5000 people. Once that is done, push the End Turn button at the top.
END OF TURN 1
Objective 2 Teach moving units: (Screen 1)
Great Chief, we have heard from other wandering tribes that in the hinterlands there are wondrous things that can aid our people to grow strong. They speak of powerful beasts that can aid in our war efforts, and grains that will make our farmers more productive. I humbly suggest it is time that our warriors be sent out to explore nearby lands.
Objective 2: (Screen 2)
To give the warriors orders as to where they should go, you use the Move button on the toolbar. Then click on the square on the map where you want the unit to go. This will show the movement path, and the number of turns it will take to get to each square. Don’t go too far for now, a few squares away is best. Movement is simultaneous in Clash, so the unit won't actually move until you press the New Turn button. If you want to examine a potential movement path before committing to it, right-clicking on a map square will do that. You can also enter move orders (and also cancel them) using the same right-click in the Units Window that you used to issue the colonize order. Now end the turn to see the unit move.
END OF TURN 2
Objective 3 various interface and auto-settlement: (Screen 1)
You will see that your unit has executed its movement, pushing back the black unknown territory. You should search to the north east of the original settlement, trying to find, and move into, a square containing a wheat icon.
On the main map, another square is outlined in blue, showing that your people have expanded your area of settlement! As the population of each square grows, hardy souls will fan out to adjacent lands and settle new villages if they see opportunities. They will do this automatically for you, so there is no need for population micro-management. You can find important information about individual map squares in the Detail Frame at lower left. It tells you about the population and other important information for the selected square. If you click on the newly-settled square, you'll see how much of your population has migrated there.
One other thing to note is that the Turn Events Window has popped up, displaying information on what happened in the previous turn. More on this later. For now you should just issue new orders to your warriors if needed, and end the turn.
END OF TURN 3
Objective 4 building a unit: (Screen 1)
Sir, I feel our settlement is in danger with our warriors afield exploring. Perhaps we should equip another group? With things going well, and the population expanding, it seems a good time to be prudent.
It's time to take the first look at issuing economic orders in Clash. Hit the button on the toolbar that says "Economics", and select "Civ Econ Orders". This will pop up two frames that constitute your economic control panel for the demo. One is the Econ Orders frame for the civ, and the other gives Econ Info on the sectors (like farming) of the economy. For now, focus on the Orders Frame. (Yes, we know the interface is ugly, it will be scrapped at some point soon ;-) )
Ran out of gas here!
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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quote:
One other thing to note is that the Turn Events Window has popped up, displaying information on what happened in the previous turn. More on this later. For now you should just issue new orders to your warriors if needed, and end the turn. |
I think this is useless. It makes for more text to read but gives little information.
I'd replace by nothing or:
"In the event windows that pops up you get information on what occurred this turn. You can double click on each line to get more details." and make it a separate window.
quote:
You will see that your unit has executed its movement, pushing back the black unknown territory. You should search to the north east of the original settlement, trying to find, and move into, a square containing a wheat icon. |
Again, the player will see this, so it's no use telling them what they saw. I am not sure that it is useful to say something about the wheat at this point as it was hinted at before.
About Objective 4, split in 2 screens, one where you give the texwt (paragraph), one for the explanations.
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Richard Bruns
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NC, USA
Nov 1999
time: 06:17
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Looks good. There were some things in there that I wasn't aware of. (I haven't played the Dawn scenario yet.)
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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Dawn Tutorial Message Windows!
This is the June 16 issue!
Laurent and Richard, thanks for your comments! Laurent, I think you'll see that I took a number of your good comments into account in revising this.
I still haven't gotten as far as I'd like, comments solicited still on:
Too much, too little per turn?
Right depth in terms of features explained, too shallow, too deep?
Does the "story line" add enough given the screen room dedicated to it, should there be more or less...?
In working on the tutorial so far I've also come up with a few issues that need to be resolved.
1. It occurs to me that having the random seed start identical for all tutorial games is a good feature. Do we have a convenient way to do this?
2. I am having some trouble with where the Turn Events comes up. No matter where I put it, at some point it hides something I want to talk about. The best place I have found for it is over the bottom half of the Units Window, because that real estate is rather rarely used in the tutorial. That may work out okay. But it seems then we'd need to put it in the settings file that way. And that is Clearly not the best place to put it for other scenarios like delenda. Ideas?
3. One other small issue I've run into is in explaining the power circle. Unfortunately, given the extremely small power of the units and task forces in the scenario, the power circle size won't change until the player has something like four of the 1000 person warrior groups. (And that's after I change the minimum power circle size to decrease it to about the smallest possible without it looking silly.) One idea I had is to have era-specific or scenario-specific power circle size settings. What do people think?
Note, I expect to put the advisor's comments in italics, or use some other means to distinguish them from the generic explanation text.
Opening screen:
Welcome
Thanks for trying out the Clash of Civilizations Demo 7! This version of the game is a demo of our design concepts. That’s so that we can get early suggestions from anyone who’s interested on what is working well, and what needs to be done differently. The demo is an alpha version that is maybe 10% of the way along to the final game. The most important feedback you can give the team is telling us if our approach for different parts of Clash seems to be going in the right direction or not!
Trigger: Begin Game.
Objective: None
Buttons: Next
Objective 1: Settle a Village (Screen 1)
“From the Chief Advisor:
As the leader of our people you must guide us to greatness in science, diplomacy, culture, economy, government and expansion. With my help, your humble Chief Advisor Juninga, you will do this.
Our goal is to settle this land and grow our people both in numbers and military strength. It is only through such strength that we can protect our people against the rampaging barbarians are rumored to be coming.
At present we have 5000 people who are currently being protected by our warrior horde unit. First we must settle them in a suitable location.”
Trigger: Begin Game.
Objective: None
Buttons: Next
Objective 1: (Screen 2)
“From the Chief Advisor:
The large window on the right which fills most of the screen is the Map Window, which represents the world as we know it. At the top left is the Units Window with the information about the units in the currently selected square on the map.
As you can see from the wagon icon on our warrior unit, that unit has settlers, our people, traveling with them. Right-click on our warriors in the Unit Window now. You will see that one of the available unit orders, at the bottom, is Colonize. Click on this order and then OK to confirm the construction of a new settlement with our 5000 people. Once that is done, push the End Turn button at the top.
END OF TURN 1
Objective 2 Teach moving units: (Screen 1)
Great Chief, we have heard from other wandering tribes that in the hinterlands there are wondrous things that can aid our people to grow strong. They speak of powerful beasts that can help in our war efforts, and grains that will make our farmers more productive. We have good information that an important grain called wheat can be found to the north east of our settlement. I humbly suggest it is time that our warriors be sent out to explore nearby lands, and investigate what they find.
Objective 2: (Screen 2)
To give the warriors orders as to where they should go, you use the Move button on the toolbar. Then click on the square on the map where you want the unit to go. This will show the movement path, and the number of turns it will take to get to each square. For now go to a square two away to the north east, just into the black unexplored area.
Movement is simultaneous in Clash, so the unit won't actually move until you press the New Turn button. If you want to examine a potential movement path before committing to it, right-clicking on a map square will do that. You can also enter move orders (and cancel ones you don't want) using the same right-click in the Units Window that you used to issue the colonize order. Now end the turn and the unit will move, following your orders.
END OF TURN 2
Objective 3 various interface and auto-settlement: (Screen 1)
On the main map, another square is outlined in blue, showing that your people have expanded your area of settlement! As the population of each square grows, hardy souls will fan out to adjacent lands and settle new villages if they see opportunities. They will do this automatically for you, so there is little need for expansion micro-management.
You can find important information about individual map squares in the Detail Frame at lower left. It tells you about the population and other important information for the selected square. If you click on the newly-settled square, you'll see how much of your population has migrated there.
Objective 3 various interface and auto-settlement: (Screen 2)
You may have noticed that there is now a somewhat-darker square north-north-east of our original settlement. The darkening of the square indicates the "fog of war". It shows that although we know the terrain in the square, we will not be aware of any enemy activities there. Fog of war doesn't affect areas near settlements and military units.
One other thing to note is the Turn Events Window that has popped up. In it you get information on what occurred this turn. You can click on each line to get more details on that “headline”. For now you should just issue new orders to your warriors to explore a further 2 squares to the NE. To see the target square you’ll need to scroll the main map. You can do that either using the scroll bar at the bottom, or by clicking on the mini-map to select a new center for the main map. After issuing the move order, end the turn.
END OF TURN 3
Objective 4 building a unit: (Screen 1)
Sir, I feel our settlement is in some danger with our warriors away exploring. Perhaps we should equip another group of warriors? With things going well, and the population expanding, it seems a good time to be prudent.
Objective 4 building a unit: (Screen 2)
Hit the button on the toolbar that says "Economics", and select "Civ Econ Orders". This economic option tells your whole nation what to build using the taxes you collect. This will pop up two frames that constitute your economic control panel for the demo. One is the Economic Orders frame for the civ, and the other gives economic information on the sectors of the economy, like farming. For now, focus on the Orders Frame. (Yes, we know the interface is ugly, it will be replaced at some point soon ;-) )
Objective 4 building a unit: (Screen 3)
To build a unit, look on the left pane of the economics windows. Ignore everything else on this screen, except for the line to build a warrior. On the warrior line under the % Spend column, type in 80 and press Enter to confirm. This order means that 80% of our government’s taxes are being spent on building warriors. Once you enter the amount of the order, the cost per turn to execute it is shown to the right, and further to the right is the number of units built per turn from the order. So our warrior will be ready in something like 10 turns at current rates of production. You should now close the econ windows, move our warriors two more squares to the NE, and end the turn.
END OF TURN 4
Objective 5 setup for first battle: (Screen 1)
From the Field Commander:
We have discovered the wheat resource that is our objective, Great Chief, but our scouts have detected a barbarian force there. It is the same size as our own, so combat would be a gamble.
Juninga's advice:
Since our homeland is at risk, and we are already increasing our military strength, I suggest we bring our warriors home, and when the new warrior unit is ready, strike at the barbarians with both units together.
Objective 5 setup for first battle: (Screen 2)
The strength of military forces in Clash is illustrated graphically using Power Circles that surround the units in the map window. The Area of the circle indicates the strength. You can see from the main map that your warrior band has approximately the same strength as that of the barbarians. There are also lines under the units in the Units Window that behave the same as the power circles on the map. There is a minimum and maximum size for a power circle, so for low-powered units or armies the power circle may not be a good gauge of military power.
Please issue orders to return the warriors unit to the square of the starting settlement and end the turn.
END OF TURN 4
Objective 6 Further info about economy: (Screen 1)
“From the Economic Advisor:
My Chief. Allow me to introduce myself. I am Hupti, your economic advisor. Let me explain the economy a little better. The nation’s economics are based on a realistic modern Earth model based on supply and demand, as well as fluctuating labor pools and skills. For example, if there is more food than the people want the price will fall. This causes wages in the food sector to drop and some farmers will consider changing jobs to a different sector.
So, in a Clash economy you, the player, won't have to micromanage to get what you want. Our goal is to allow you to change the economy from peacetime to war footing in something like 10 mouse clicks. If you Are inclined to fine-tune things, however, you can get down to a frighteningly precise level of detail.
Objective 6 Further info about economy: (Screen 2)
Open the Civ Econ Orders from the Economics button. Note that you can also issue orders to individual provinces, but since we only have one province for now, we’ll ignore that distinction. At the upper left is the area where you can change the tax rate. I suggest you leave it as-is for now. In the right “Econ Info” pane, the growth in each sector, and other information, is shown so you can gauge where the economy stands. Especially important is the Price for each good. A low price (significantly below 1) shows that an excess is produced, and people would prefer other things instead. Please leave the economics windows up and end the turn, you will see how the economy changes over that period of time in response to your build order and your people’s activities. Then go ahead and close the windows down, dismiss this message, and end the turn again.
END OF TURNS 5 AND 6
Objective 7 Make a TF: (Screen 1)
“From the Chief Advisor:
Excuse me my Chief, but our warriors are returning home and I just wish to point out a couple of things to help you in the future. It is possible to group a number of units into Task Forces. Creation and rearrangement of task forces is done in the Units Window. When units are grouped into a task force you can move them by issuing a single order, and the units in a task force will always fight together. Also, a task force will only move as fast as the slowest unit. When our second warrior unit is built, we will group both our units together in a task force.
Objective 7 Make a TF: (Screen 2)
Our new group of warriors have been built and trained! Although the safety afforded us by having a third warrior unit is attractive, construction of each additional unit reduces the population of workers in the economy, and increases military support costs. Since we want to expand the population rapidly, I feel we should stop producing warriors for now. [Please go into the Civ Econ Orders and remove the warrior build order. Then dismiss the Econ windows.]
Objective 7 Make a TF: (Screen 3)
Now we must put both warrior units in a single task force, and move our army to attack the vile barbarians. To group these two units you need to first click on the tile that contains the two units on the Map Window. You will see that the two units are separate in the Unit Information Window. Right-click on the first unit and click on the option "Merge all units to selected TF". This will make the border encircle both units signifying a Task Force. Each unit still retains its power line (underneath each unit), and the task force also has a power line (the line centered at the bottom of the task force box). Now, the Task Force will respond to move orders just like a single unit. Order your army to move to the square with the barbarian unit, and end the turn. Battle will occur when our task force is in the barbarians’ square.
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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quote:
2. I am having some trouble with where the Turn Events comes up. No matter where I put it, at some point it hides something I want to talk about. The best place I have found for it is over the bottom half of the Units Window, because that real estate is rather rarely used in the tutorial. That may work out okay. But it seems then we'd need to put it in the settings file that way. And that is Clearly not the best place to put it for other scenarios like delenda. |
Either use x,y as Gary proposes or, later on, we could use something like giving a window name (or set of) so that the popup mustn't hide these. It would be up to the program to find a layout that doesn't hide the windows, even if the player moved them along. It may be overkill.
About the text:
You should add a 'From the advisor' in screen 1 of objective 4. Also, in screen 2 of objective 7, when you first say task force, add a comment like "(abbreviated TF)" since the TF abbreviation appears in the menus.
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Richard Bruns
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NC, USA
Nov 1999
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark_Everson
3. One other small issue I've run into is in explaining the power circle. Unfortunately, given the extremely small power of the units and task forces in the scenario, the power circle size won't change until the player has something like four of the 1000 person warrior groups. (And that's after I change the minimum power circle size to decrease it to about the smallest possible without it looking silly.) One idea I had is to have era-specific or scenario-specific power circle size settings. What do people think?
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Why do power circles have a minimum size? I vote for simply eliminating the minimum size and seeing what the game looks like then.
Long-term solutions are far trickier, however. If a powerful Roman army's power circle fills up one map tile, a modern army's would cover half the continent. But that's discission for a different thread.
quote:
The most important feedback you can give the team is telling us if our approach for different parts of Clash seems to be going in the right direction or not!
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Maybe put something in there about how our goal is to eliminate micromanagement and tedium, and if players notice these starting to develop they should especially tell us about them.
quote:
You will see that one of the available unit orders, at the bottom, is Colonize. Click on this order and then OK to confirm the construction of a new settlement with our 5000 people. Once that is done, push the End Turn button at the top.
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People will want to know which squares are best to colonize. Maybe put something in there like "This square is good to colonize because of the large number of farm sites. You can see the number of farm sites in the detail window..."
quote:
The strength of military forces in Clash is illustrated graphically using Power Circles that surround the units in the map window. The Area of the circle indicates the strength. You can see from the main map that your warrior band has approximately the same strength as that of the barbarians.
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I'd add instructions on seeing the detailed combat statistics of the units. "You can see the full statistics of our warriors by right-clicking them on the units window and selecting "details" and you can see the stats of their warriors by selecting their square on the map window and right-clicking them in the units window.
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13-05-2002 18:25
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