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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by uglyduck
I would like to point out that it the 2 years that the Site has been active only 8 people have ever been banned. |
Interesting...hard to believe, though. It seems pretty easy to be banned...I managed to get banned myself simply for daring to criticize a series of capricious actions by the forum moderators. I don't know the circumstances of the other gentleman's banning, however, but if it's the incident I'm thinking of, they were pretty unsavory, and may have been justified.
quote:
Originally posted by uglyduck
Freedom of Speech and Games forums do not go together  |
That part is clearly the philosphy of the official site, at least. And one that seems to be carried to disturbing extremes.
quote:
Originally posted by uglyduck
Inflammatory or provocative posts will not be tolerated on the Paradox Forums. |
Nor will any questioning, criticism, or challenge of forum moderators.
quote:
Originally posted by uglyduck
The line is drawn and it works well. |
It's actually quite vague and is applied in an arbitrarily, self-serving manner.
Of course, as I'm sure the Duck will point out, I'm biased. I do have an ax to grind. He just gave it to me, himself, as punishment for my heinous crimes. I'm sure there were some, and he may even be able to articulate one or two he perceives as legitimate (probably something to do with my lack of respect for the exalted position of the moderators, or maybe the sarcastic/obnoxious tone of my last post). But in reality, it was because I refused to accept the moderators commandment that "though shalt not criticize the moderators", no matter how ridiculous I perceived some of their decisions and actions. It is truly amazing, though, even a bit funny, how defensively they react to even the mildest criticism. Gives a new meaning to the phrase "zero tolerance".
That said, the thin skin and inflated sense of importance exhibited by some Paradox mods is a poor reason to engage in piracy. And the arbitrary actions of hyper-sensitive forum mods/admins don't impact my ability to read the forums or download the patches. I just can't share any pearls of wisdom I may have gleaned about the game. Basically, I can't play in their sandbox, until I demonstrate a willingness to kowtow properly, and promise not to criticize inappropriate behavior.
If you want to frequent the official site (which is far more active than this one...never did like that black, though), just be sure you never question or criticize any mods actions, no matter how idiotic. And for God's sake, try to use their incredibly primitive, woefully inadequate, amazingly restrictive PM system, even when it's painfully obvious that a public discussion would be more appropriate.
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
...it is very apparent what you did to get yourself banned.  You first posted a thread complaining about the moderator's decission to move you thread since you requested that it stay in the general forum... |
Actually, in that post, I simply informed one moderator that his decision had consequence beyond the thread being moved. Since you seem to be following the case so closely, I wonder how you missed the fact that the thread was merged with an unrelated thread and mostly deleted? I'm odd in that I find that sort of thing irritating, especially when I had taken pains to avoid that kind of problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
Your post was regarding a bug (whether you were certain it was for certain or not) and virtually all the responses by various individuals who responded to the thread complaining about the decision agreed with the moderator's decision to move it to the bug forum. |
Not sure how this is relevant, but since it seems important to you, it's not accurate, anyway - perhaps you aren't following this fascinating issue as closely as I'd thought? You can always go check, until/unless someone starts deleting more posts. Three or four people who responded supported moving the thread, though they hadn't actually read the by-then lost thread (well, actually, one had...the gentleman who had inexplicably been urging the moderator to move the thread from the beginning). The bug forum moderator (who had actually read the lost thread) indicated that it was perfectly appropriate in either place. But again...how is this relevant? There were a lot of knee-jerk attacks and we love the moderator assertions...is that what you were referring to by "agreed with the moderator's decision"?
quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
At this point you continued to post additional threads complaining about the decision after the moderators locked the old ones, and finally warned you to stop or get banned. |
umm...not quite...at that point I posted one additional thread observing that, while locking the one thread that had gotten out of hand was appropriate, the blanket prohibition on discussions of bug reporting rules, forum policy, and moderator actions was most certainly not. But, yes, that did flout the moderator's specious warning that no public questioning of moderator actions would be tolerated. Sorry, but that kind of prohibition is laughably self-serving; as is the clever "use the PM system" ploy, which conveniently ignores the fact that most posts would never fit into a PM.
quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
At this point you actually told Uglyduck that you would continue to post new threads complaining about the decision until you were banned, giving him no choice but to ban you. |
umm...not quite...at this point I told Uglyduck I would continue to follow fora rules (as I had all along), but I reminded him that it was perfectly appropriate for me (or anyone) to comment on inappropriate moderator actions, when/if observed...which included his reiterated prohibition on any discussion of forum rules or moderator actions. I did tell him to go ahead and ban me if he seriously expected me to comply with something as ridiculous as a complete moratorium on any questioning of moderators, and I gave him the opportunity either to ban me or to recognize the absurdity of his position with a second, highly sarcastic post. Quite obvious which one he preferred. Not quite sure, though, if you're misrepresenting him, or if he misrepresented the PM I sent him...makes his fondness for PMs more interesting, though.
I particularly love the "no choice but to ban" line...that one is just too much! Someone must've been holding a gun to his head, I guess...he certainly can't be held responsible...he just had no choice!
quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
I am virtually certain that if you acted in the same manner on these forums you would get banned as well. |
For a few suggestions that moderators may have acted inappropriately!? LOL Please! that only gets you banned at Paradox's site. I'm not saying anyone's behavior actually changes when mods/admins get called on inappropriate behavior on other fora, but at least they are less prone to try muzzling every hint of criticism in sight, and are more adept at giving people the illusion that they have some voice.
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by uglyduck
...I cannot comment here on actions I have taken against an individual in another forum... |
See, he "cannot comment"...like he was "forced" to ban me. Clearly this is a person who operates under tremendous constraints; mere mortals like myself can't begin to fathom them.
quote:
Originally posted by uglyduck
...I am afraid that only one side will be aired here as I have no intention of sullying this forum with the matter.... |
Yeah, it's often funny how two people can look at the same situation and come away with radically different interpretations. But why bother to engage anyone if you can't ban them whenever they disagree or become irritating, right?
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Allemand
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Olympia
Feb 2000
time: 05:17
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Aw, come on, guys. This sounds like a major case of sour grapes. I criticized a moderator more than a few times over there, and I didn't get banned.
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by Allemand
...This sounds like a major case of sour grapes... |
Affirmative...major!
quote:
Originally posted by Allemand
...I criticized a moderator more than a few times over there, and I didn't get banned... |
I suspect I touched a nerve...challenging his authority, you know...very bad form...
surprisingly easy to do, though...
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uglyduck
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Just to clarify:
The incident was investigated, at Robroys request, by the Paradox Directors and my actions vindicated.
Last word on this subject here by me.
Thank you.
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by uglyduck
Just to clarify:
The incident was investigated, at Robroys request, by the Paradox Directors and my actions vindicated.
Last word on this subject here by me.
Thank you. |
Sad, but true. Paradox has confirmed that the most fundamental concept of free expression - the ability to question, challenge, and criticize the "authorities", in a free, unfettered and public manner - is non-existent on their site. At the moderators' discretion, you might be able to express mild disapproval, but you'll need to be careful. They seem to lump public discussion of moderator behavior with discussions of Nazi ideology, which they proudly inform me they also don't allow; yet they seem oblivious to the irony there.
But I shouldn't be surprised...someone who, smilingly, declares that "Freedom of Speech and Games forums do not go together", must feel fairly confident that he is expressing official policy. I guess it's best that Paradox has clarified their stand on that issue. It is now easier to understand how the moderators' intolerance developed, since they certainly have not always been so draconian.
So, run along now...back to your hole. I'm sure you'll enjoy all the consequences of your actions. Personally, I think you will regret trying to create an environment in which you hold all the cards, intimate or ban critics, and are not held accountable for any mistakes you or your colleagues make. I had not thought of you as someone who feared engaging people as peers, but it seems I was mistaken. An overwhelming advantage is occasionally fun...in a game...but even there it tends to lose it's allure...it's quite empty in real life. Sad, if you never learn that.
Funny, though, didn't I see someone saying something about not wanting to sully this forum? Ahh, well...it was obviously BS anyway, and consistency isn't something I expect of you anymore. But,... ...that smells more than a bit petty to me. I thought an exalted administrators would at least pretend to be beyond that. I'm certainly not...but then...I have cause...what's your excuse?
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
quote:
"Freedom of Speech and Games forums do not go together", |
The same is true here, you don't have the freedom to say whatever you like, as Ming has said "This is not a democracy". Posting at these sites is a privilege, not a right - that should not be forgotten. |
True...and perhaps I assumed too much based on this forum and on what I perceived as common sense. You have the freedom to say a great deal more here. And, as we all know, people are constantly questioning and criticizing the mods.
I'll take Ming and Mark, warts and all, any day of the week. At least they tend to respond in a reasonably professional manner, even when they clearly do not like what people say, rather than cutting you off immediately and permanently banning you. The Paradox crowd actually seems quite proud of the fact that their standards are much more strict that the "wild" poly forum.
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
I don't know the place too well, but if you don't like the rules, which are probably known to all (?), then don't go there. (Being banned I guess you can't  ). |
Well, I thought I knew the rules, quite well...that's why it is so galling. It was news to me that public questioning of forum rules and challenging inappropriate moderator actions were prohibited.
Perhaps there was some other rule I violated. I wouldn't know, since they didn't actually bother to cite the grounds for the banning...seems pretty obvious, though.
But, like you said, I don't like that sort of self-serving rule, so I probably shouldn't go there (assuming I could). Still irritating, though...
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolus_Rex
Uhm, why bash UD? He's the best Admin. there is, he's running the fora superbly. |
Hey, Carolus
Sorry I can no longer share your opinion. I have some quite different adjectives in mind.
As for the "bashing", if you'll read back in this thread, it was the Duck who came here advertising his utopian fora. I'm simply clarifying, for would be visitors, that posts they consider reasonable and appropriate may be perceived quite differently on the Paradox fora. Visitors should know that inconsistent, capricious reactions are possible if they engage in even mild criticism of moderator mistakes and actions.
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Allemand
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Olympia
Feb 2000
time: 05:17
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"Inconsistent and capricious" accurately describe some of their moderators, but UD has not been either of those.
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RobRoy
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quote:
Originally posted by Allemand
"Inconsistent and capricious" accurately describe some of their moderators, but UD has not been either of those. |
Certainly he is far from the worst over there. Nor did I perceive him in a negative light, at all, until my recent unpleasant experience.
But the banning was highly capricious, especially since I didn't violate any actual forum rules. Formerly, he would rarely go beyond warning people who did actually violate rules. So my banning strikes me as "inconsistent", also, even if he can assert there was some violation.
Perhaps he was just having a bad day...Perhaps he'll be more careful in the future...Perhaps he's intentionally introducing more draconian policies...who knows...
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04-02-2002 04:06
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