04-02-2002 08:47									#31
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd And I still haven't figured out the connection between Columbian drug lords and OBL

not the drug lords

the apparatus

Jon Miller

	04-02-2002 08:51									#32
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Faded Glory -

quote: Umm.......Does the truth hurt? Because its true if you happen to like cocaine.

Since when did the terrorists get into the cocaine business? Are you now agreeing that diamonds, oil, stocks, and currency, guns, among countless other products like airplanes should be banned and people caught using these should be imprisoned because some people use them to hurt others?

quote: Crops--->Cocaine-------->$$$$$$$----->Guns for Columbian druglords who fund the leftist guerilla's for protection of there crops from the goverment.

You forgot a quite important word - "illegal" crops. The reason "druglords" pay off leftist guerillas for protection is because we have pushed "our" drug war on Colombia which has made cocaine illegal to satisfy US freedom haters. Colombia didn't have this problem when cocaine was legal, go figure...

quote: But Weed.....most of our stuff comes from Canada these days

Information like this was conveniently left out of the "government" commercials since they wanted to blame everyone who uses an illegal drug.

	04-02-2002 08:51									#33
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If the drugs were legal than the apparatus wouldn't be there.

	04-02-2002 08:53									#34
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Personally, I fail to see why anyone would use drugs in the first place...

Seems like a big waste of money to me.

	04-02-2002 08:53									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Faded Glory - Since when did the terrorists get into the cocaine business? Are you now agreeing that diamonds, oil, stocks, and currency, guns, among countless other products like airplanes should be banned and people caught using these should be imprisoned because some people use them to hurt others?

It's not an issue about whether they use them to hurt others - I think that the commerical was saying they fund terrorism with profits from the drug buisness. I haven't seen the commerical, but that's what it seems like to me.

	04-02-2002 08:56									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Just broadcast during the Super Bowl was the accusation that people who use "drugs" might be helping to fund terrorists.

That depends on the drugs you choose to use. Now, truely was your problem really the fact that they chose to make no distinction for your favorite pharmacutical of choice? Or are you really so naive as to believe that "bad" people don't sell illegal things?

	04-02-2002 08:59									#37
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quote: I think that the commerical was saying they fund terrorism with profits from the drug buisness.

Yeah, but you should have seen that reprehensible 2nd commerical. Kids saying "It hurts nobody right" and then saying "I helped kill a police officer".

Totally distastful and a pack full of lies... wonder how they'd like it if some group had a commerical on how ending the war on drugs wouldn't lead to that.

	04-02-2002 09:08									#38
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A description for those not watching the Superbowl:

The first commercial is laid out like the MasterCard ads. It flashes up up images of people with guns, bombs, etc. alternating with messages like "Explosives: $1000" "Cars: $500" "AK-47: $1500" "Box cutters: $10". Then at the end: "Ever wonder wonder where terrorists get their money? If you buy drugs, it could be from you."



I really doubt the box cutters were bought with crack money. How about:

"Ever wonder where terrorists get their money? If you buy gas, it could be from you."

	04-02-2002 09:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 I really doubt the box cutters were bought with crack money.

Afghanistan's main export is opium, not oil.

	04-02-2002 09:11									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 "Ever wonder where terrorists get their money? If you buy gas, it could be from you."

Corporations are not the kind of terrorists they are talking about - they like those kind.

	04-02-2002 09:26									#41
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"Totally distastful and a pack full of lies..."

Not at all a pack full of lies. It's a very direct connection. If somebody buys crack, for instance, they are responsible for all of the acts down the line that got them that crack.

Same too with oil, although the responsibility is scrubbed somewhat by the blind-buyer, blind-seller commodity market.

	04-02-2002 09:27									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Afghanistan's main export is opium, not oil.

And if OBL got any money from the Taliban that might be important, but all the financial aid flowed in the other direction.

Besides, Mullah Omar was considered a valuable partner in the War on Drugs. Too bad John Lindh wasn't in his anti-drug unit--we probably would have given him a medal.

	04-02-2002 09:30									#43
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quote: Leftist guerilla's in Columbia are quite known for there Car-Bombs in Bogota, Kidnapping western journalists for ransom and Crimes against small villages.

Same with the state and its rightist paramilitary cronies, but much more so. Nonetheless, the conflict between the Colombian state and the guerilla groups, and the civilians who are caught in between, is not directly related to drugs. It would go on with or without US cocaine legalization, as it has for much of the past century.

But drug legalization would severely limit the power of the state, the AUC, and the FARC (and other guerilla groups) by drastically reducing the income these organizations gain through the taxation of coca (IIRC, the AUC gains 70% of its income through coca taxation, and the the FARC 50%), thereby reducing the net terror in Colombia. Furthermore, the power of the drug traffickers, who are complicit with both sides of the conflict, would dissolve, further reducing the terror in the region.

So, actually you prohibitionists support terrorists.

quote: So ones ok, we should allow them all? Fuzzy Logic......

Alcohol is legal, so marijuana, which is arguably not as bad, should be illegal? Fuzzy logic.

	04-02-2002 09:30									#44
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quote: Not at all a pack full of lies. It's a very direct connection. If somebody buys crack, for instance, they are responsible for all of the acts down the line that got them that crack.

LOLOLOL!

So, if you buy a pack of cigarettes then you are responsible for the deaths of those that die of lung cancer from cigs?

How far do you go?

	04-02-2002 09:33									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So, if you buy a pack of cigarettes then you are responsible for the deaths of those that die of lung cancer from cigs?

Well, you'll be responsible for your own death.

	04-02-2002 09:36									#46
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But you are giving profits to Philip Morris, who will make more cigs and more advertisizing, getting more smokers, killing more people.

Shall we put smoker to blame for killing more people as well?

	04-02-2002 09:36									#47
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quote: But Weed.....most of our stuff comes from Canada these days

The increased security along the border means most of the bud originally destined to the U.S. is now being diffused across Canada meaning a better quality product at lower prices.

	04-02-2002 09:38									#48
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Only a tenuous responsibility in that instance. By buying a pack of cigarettes, you are enabling further tobacco advertising.

But in the instance of drugs, the responsibility is much clearer. If you buy cocaine or crack cocaine, you directly trigger a long list of actions to supply you that cocaine, all of which are necessarily on the other side of the law.

	04-02-2002 10:01									#49
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory But Weed.....most of our stuff comes from Canada these days

Get me outta here!

Head Office just confirmed -- I'll be back in LA before the bombers get to Vancouver!

	04-02-2002 10:03									#50
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quote: If you buy cocaine or crack cocaine, you directly trigger a long list of actions to supply you that cocaine, all of which are necessarily on the other side of the law.

Begs the question. You're assuming the inherent criminality of using cocaine.

quote: If somebody buys crack, for instance, they are responsible for all of the acts down the line that got them that crack.

The reponsibility lies equally with the criminalizers.

	04-02-2002 10:35									#51
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"You're assuming the inherent criminality of using cocaine."

Yes, it's illegal. Because of the ill effects of using it on a personal and societal basis, and the reasons for which it's used, I don't contemplate it ever being legal.

"The reponsibility lies equally with the criminalizers."

That sounds like a BS whitewash of drug use to me, clem. The representatives of the people have merely codified the people's wishes. These wishes seem reasonable because of the ill effects of drug use. Nobody wants crack heads taking over the neighborhood.

	04-02-2002 10:37									#52
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Faded Glory -

quote: The irony is corn doesnt kill

Yes it does, ever hear of corn-based alcohol and ethanol? Then there are other crops - tobacco, peanuts, hops, sugar, etc., etc., etc... There will always be a percentage of people who die from a wide variety of foods and drugs, and many of the people who die from illegal drugs are killed by impurities and lack of quality control. Do you see the irony of your argument?

quote: and then sell itself for 1000% of its real value. Which brings a nice net profit to the dealers.

The reason illegal drugs sell for so much is because they are illegal - care to blame yourself for a policy that enriches terrorists? I don't see you guys accusing Democrats, Republicans, and taxpayers for funding the Taliban. Why is that?

quote: Leftist guerilla's in Columbia are quite known for there Car-Bombs in Bogota, Kidnapping western journalists for ransom and Crimes against small villages.

Then punish leftist guerillas.

quote: So ones ok, we should allow them all? Fuzzy Logic......

We aren't the ones who claim alcohol and tobacco should be legal while roughly 1/2 million people die every year from them and all the other drugs with a comparatively miniscule death toll should be banned. That's called hypocrisy...

Emporer Fabulous -

quote: Buyers = Demand Demand = Necessity to Supply Supply = Supporting Drug Lords Support = Drug Lords Supply money to bad guys Supply = Money to use to Fake IDs, etc. Makes sense to me...

And why do "drug lords" (FARMERS) need to support the bad guys? Because governments have made drugs illegal and instead of defending them against the bad guys, attack them! Make sense now?

Jon Miller -

quote: the apparatus of illegal drug smuggling is used by terrorists too which I think is the point

Because farmers are encouraged to grow these crops because of the profits resulting from their illegality. This "apparatus" was created by governments, not farmers and users. Terrorists use many sources of revenue, should money, taxes, oil, stocks, diamonds, and all the other revenue sources be banned?

Osweld -

quote: It's not an issue about whether they use them to hurt others - I think that the commerical was saying they fund terrorism with profits from the drug buisness. I haven't seen the commerical, but that's what it seems like to me.

The "illegal" drug business. And they have at least 2 commercials, the second one showed alleged drug users confessing how they helped murder judges and cops among others and telling us how using drugs is not a consensual act. This "logic" would mean the terrorists could "justify" their crimes because the US is a major supplier of alcohol - a product banned in several Muslim countries for the same reasons we ban other drugs.

Dinodoc -

quote: That depends on the drugs you choose to use.

No, even if I used heroin, I would not be responsible for the bad people who use heroin's illegality to fund other activities. It's the illegality of the product that has created the situation. If I sell you my car and use the money to buy a gun to murder my neighbor, are you responsible?

quote: Now, truely was your problem really the fact that they chose to make no distinction for your favorite pharmacutical of choice?

First, I don't use illegal drugs. And nope, just pointing out how they tried to smear everyone who uses drugs they don't like based on people who use only heroin/opium.

quote: Or are you really so naive as to believe that "bad" people don't sell illegal things?

Care for some Enron stock? Does this mean people who buy stock stole from those who bought Enron?

quote: Afghanistan's main export is opium, not oil.

Who do you think funded the Taliban and OBL? In addition to the millions "our" politicians sent, the Saudis and Pakistanis supplied arms and money - from oil among other revenue sources. When Indonesia (?) was slaughtering people in E Timor, they did so with weapons we sold them...and we never saw ads from the government telling those of us who pay taxes that we were helping murder those people by paying taxes.

Andrew -

quote: "Ever wonder where terrorists get their money? If you buy gas, it could be from you."

Yup, same "logic".

	04-02-2002 10:39									#53
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quote: Only a tenuous responsibility in that instance. By buying a pack of cigarettes, you are enabling further tobacco advertising. But in the instance of drugs, the responsibility is much clearer. If you buy cocaine or crack cocaine, you directly trigger a long list of actions to supply you that cocaine, all of which are necessarily on the other side of the law.

Only because you want one to stay legal and the other stay illegal. Your biases are clearly showing through.

You neglect that if cocaine were legal, there would be no funding of the Marxist rebels in Colombia by drugs. It is BECAUSE of its illegality that the rebels get their money. The government is responsible for the killings in Columbia, not the people.

quote: That sounds like a BS whitewash of drug use to me, clem. The representatives of the people have merely codified the people's wishes. These wishes seem reasonable because of the ill effects of drug use. Nobody wants crack heads taking over the neighborhood.

Nobody wants alcholics taking over the neighborhood. Let's illegalize alcohol!

Um... let's not. I believe in freedom.

	04-02-2002 10:49									#54
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Imran: You can continue to paint a utopia where drug use it totally legal, but you ignore the fact that in no instance would drugs like crack cocaine be safe. Therefore, distribution for recreational use would be illegal in any event.

Re making sales of alcohol illegal, there's nothing stopping you. It is prohibited in many jurisdictions. I see nothing wrong with that.

	04-02-2002 10:50									#55
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quote: Yes, it's illegal. Because of the ill effects of using it on a personal and societal basis, and the reasons for which it's used, I don't contemplate it ever being legal.

I take it that you're unfamiliar with Portugal's drug laws.

	04-02-2002 10:52									#56
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quote: Yes, it's illegal. Because of the ill effects of using it on a personal and societal basis, and the reasons for which it's used, I don't contemplate it ever being legal.

Actually, it was legal once, & for a long time.

If users are responsible for "all of the acts down the line," then it's fair to hold criminalizers to the same standard. As a criminalizer, you recommend restricting drug distribution to the most violent, ruthless, and lawless elements in society. Hence, you're responsible for what happens.

	04-02-2002 10:56									#57
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Clem: You fall under the same spell as Imran. You can't get it through your thick skulls that this stuff can only be sold through illegal channels on a mass basis. Even tobacco is having a tough go of it as a legal business, and it is much more ingrained in society than drug use.

	04-02-2002 11:00									#58
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quote: You can continue to paint a utopia where drug use it totally legal, but you ignore the fact that in no instance would drugs like crack cocaine be safe.

There are no instances that tobacco is safe. That doesn't stop them from selling that.

The only way to stop this 'mass' sale of illegal drugs is to totally legalize them. There is no reason for making them illegal, except that the government thinks it should control what people can do with their own bodies.

	04-02-2002 11:00									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Who do you think funded the Taliban and OBL?

For the most part, OBL himself and his connections in Saudia Arabia as you stated. He is a multi-millionaire from the Arab equivilant to the Rockefellers after all.

quote: It's the illegality of the product that has created the situation.

Of course it has. That still doesn't change the truth value of the statement that the drug trade funds both criminal & terrorist organizations though. The only difference is the conclusions you draw from such a statement. The commercial drew the wrong one.

	04-02-2002 11:12									#60
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I think it's wrong to load up a junky with guilt like that.

He has his problems, he uses drugs and then he thinks that he is helping terrorists by doing it.

So he gets even more depressed and has to use even more drugs. And so on and so forth.


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