09-12-2000 06:36									#31
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Something to think of. I say include the balloon/zeppelin chassis first, and worry about playbalance issues like whether it can be a trader or settler later.

Having said that, I don't think it would be tough to playbalance it for trade. It's going to cost a helluva lot more to put a zep into freight service than a few camels or trucks. And it's not like you would gain a trade bonus.. you'd just have the advantage of being able to travel overseas without having to build a separate transport.

And as for realism, I should think a zep is certainly going to be able to carry the same load as a caravan of camels! Anyone know how many passengers the Hindenburg could carry? (And I'll bet you it was ferrying cargo/luggage/mail too.)

As a unit transport, it's it should probably not be able to carry more than one unit, but again, there's the trade-off... sure you can transport units, but are you going to want to take it into enemy land where it can be easily shot down?

[This message has been edited by hHydro (edited December 08, 2000).]

	09-12-2000 11:01									#32
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Hell, I don't even want trading units, but if they're put in I'd like to see the whole gamut of them. Yes, trading by sea is chaeper, but if you want to go overland, that's not an option. Trains would probably be better, but you have to lay down track the entire way. Apart from railrods, airships would probably beat out any other type of ground transport.

The uses for airships are as follows.
Trading: easier to move through rough territory than trains.
Bombing: good predecesor to heavy bomber planes.
Transport: Probably only for infantry and light vehicles.

Bear in mind, their window of use for military purposes is pretty damned short. They really only got good enough to do anything in the years just before WW1 and for perhaps a decade after. After that, they're just too easily shot down. But for trade and supply, they'd be great.

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Jared Lessl

	15-12-2000 23:36									#34
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and as for the 'window' of usefulness, that all depends how the tech race is going. As I said above, just because zeppelins were overlooked in favour of planes in our earth's timeline, doesn't mean it has to happen in the game.

In these games, I've seen tanks facing musketeers, I've seen wonders built and then rendered useless 20 turns later by another civ's advancement.. in SMAC, I've seen AAA defensive units enter service before the first plane is built.. so there's no reason not to do something just because it didn't quite work that way in our history.

	16-12-2000 00:15									#35
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Historical "balloons" were used during WW2, to warn of air raids. They did nothing for the defence, they just gave about a half hour warning of an air raid.

	20-12-2000 07:29									#36
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	21-12-2000 08:43									#37
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Radar does the same job, and much better. So do a bunch of forward observers or scouting airplanes with radios; only under unusual circumstances would balloons be of real use, and even then this wouldn't be well represented by the civ combat model.

The thing about radar is that it comes maybe 20 or 30 turns too late. Of course, it can take half that long just to build up a decent bombing fleet, so again you run into the frigate problem. By the time you actually build them, they're nearly obsolete.

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Jared Lessl

	21-12-2000 08:54									#38
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hmmm...never had that problem with Frigates really...

in fact, a great number of my seiges against enemy civs have been through Frigates. Usually I find an unsuspecting civ with mostly coastal cities and phalanxes to defend them...and then I crush them in around 10 turns.

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	21-12-2000 19:17									#39
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If we're going for shorter turns, more techs and more units then a recon balloon and a bomber baloon make an interesting inclusion. I'm not so sure about military transport - for balloons to transport entire units you'd need to build a fleet of them. I don't think there was ever any suggestion of that being viable. Shifting diplomats, spies and other specials would certainly be possible.