11-03-2002 03:09									#31
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Oops - reread your post - my example should be the Gondormen not the elves - you referred to humans. Still, I don't see what the problem is.

	11-03-2002 04:25									#32
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quote: Where tolkien comes closest to a racist vision is in his description of various "decaying/degenerate" peoples within the Human race.

The descriptions of "lesser men" refer to men who don't have elvish blood. But the nobler men, the ones with the blood of N£menor, also don't have pure blood either, since it's a mix of human and elvish blood. The Elves are "higher" however, being smarter and fairer than other races. But even they commited horrible acts in the past, and furthermore they are a dying race. In Tolkien's work it's quite often said that the future belongs to the race of men, who are lesser in beauty and lore than the elves.

Would seem a bit odd for a rascist to say that the future belongs to an inferior race (men), or that a superior race (elves) will disapear from the earth.

	11-03-2002 04:28									#33
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You've missed my point. Ignoring Elves and whatnot, all "Species" by traditional definition, secrtain groups among the men (ie. Gondoreans) are portrayed as degenerate, decaying, impure. Practically straight out of a turn-of-the-centure Racial Hygiene textbook.

	11-03-2002 04:35									#34
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quote: secrtain groups among the men (ie. Gondoreans) are portrayed as degenerate, decaying, impure.

Their nation is decaying, yes. But is that rascist? Especcially since the Gondoreans are the big winners in the war, and they fought bravely.

And men that are definetly "degenerate, decaying, impure" are the wildmen who fell under the evil workings of Sadam and Osama...uh...Morgoth and Sauron.

	11-03-2002 05:19									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Their nation is decaying, yes. But is that rascist? Especcially since the Gondoreans are the big winners in the war, and they fought bravely. And men that are definetly "degenerate, decaying, impure" are the wildmen who fell under the evil workings of Sadam and Osama...uh...Morgoth and Sauron.

But Tolkien wrote his tale long before they became famous. Unless you got a hidden scene somewhere the film didn't even show a single wildman.

You make a good point but it's.... crazy.

	11-03-2002 08:03									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase You've missed my point. Ignoring Elves and whatnot, all "Species" by traditional definition, secrtain groups among the men (ie. Gondoreans) are portrayed as degenerate, decaying, impure. Practically straight out of a turn-of-the-centure Racial Hygiene textbook.

IIRC, Tolkien describes men as being similar to elves at the first, but over time men tried to hold onto long lives (The first men to appear in Middle Earth chose their time of death when they were old.) and in doing so ended up shortening their lives.

At the same time, he does describe Numeroreans as becoming lesser when their blood intermingles with less pure blood, but this has less to do with racist beliefs as it does with Tolkiens belief in the "rights" of kings and his strong anti-democratic beliefs.

	11-03-2002 08:16									#37
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Of course you could argue that was merely for the purposes of the story so you didn't question Aragorn's worth as King of Gondor.

	11-03-2002 08:35									#38
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If you read Tolkien's introduction to LOTR it's apparent that actually he was a Ludite, someone who is anti-industry. The one allusion to a current event he makes in his introduction is to the destruction of the native beauty of the area he grew up in by modern mills. Remeber the despised hobbit Sandyman? Sam or Frodo has a dream in Lorthien that Sandyman will industrialize the Shire and render the farmers into vagabonds. Sandyman is a variation of the name of the mill that ruined his boyhood home. He makes repeated referrences in the books to the destruction of nature. The enemy's land's are filled with "foul" forges which blacken and pollute the land. Orcs destroy nature wantonly, while elves, who are distinctly fairie-like, live in harmony with nature. Hobbits are simple agricultural folk who have relatively ittle impact on nature in Tolkien's world.

AFAIK very few white supremicists are true "Green" people. If they think this piece of work favors them then they're deluded. Consider after all that white supremicists are hardly drawn from the Rhodes Scholars of our society.

	11-03-2002 08:36									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Star Wars is inherently racist too. After all, to know one storm trooper is to know them all, what, with their head-to-toe uniforms that make them all look exactly the same....all of them are HORRIBLE shots....yep. Star Wars too.

Hehe. Actually Star Wars was rascist as the Emporer had a bias and distrust against all non-humans (Somthing to do with a Darth somebody getting himself killed when he shouldn't have ) and didn't allow any non-humans in the ranks of his stormtroopers.

*Waves flag with "Star Wars nerd" boldly emblazened on the front*



Tolkien's orcs were derived from elven stock in the first age when some of the Sindarian (those that didn't return to Valinor IIRC) elves fell under Morgoths sway. Similarly the Easterlings were likewise corrupted at the dawn of the age of men.
Both of these new "races" were portrayed as having "fallen" and lost that given to them by the Valar.
The Numenoreans were the remnants of the 3 tribes of the Edain who supported the Noldor in the war against Morgoth, and were gifted longer life by the Valar after the overthrow of Angband.
The lords of Numenor were direct descendants from Elros (Elronds brother) who chose to become human, and brought with him the wisdom and power of his elvish/Maiar heritage.
It was never really intended as being a question of race but rather of beliefs and their consequences.

	11-03-2002 08:49									#40
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I currently have the silmarillion sitting about 20 centimetres from me as I type this. I must get around to reading it.

	11-03-2002 08:50									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase You've missed my point. Ignoring Elves and whatnot, all "Species" by traditional definition, secrtain groups among the men (ie. Gondoreans) are portrayed as degenerate, decaying, impure. Practically straight out of a turn-of-the-centure Racial Hygiene textbook.

Yet the hero of the book isn't a high elve, or a descendent of a Numenorean king, but a lowly hobbit, who's stock was also described as having "lessened" since the earlier days. At various points in the book greater figures, like Gandalf, Elrond, and Celeberon praise the lowly hobbits for their humble virtues. Why? I'll tell you why. Tolkien, along with C.S. Lewis and Aldous Huxley was a founding member of a Christian religious society at Oxford (or was it Cambidge) at a time when religion was very much on the decline. It should be obvious to the careful reader that humility is a major theme of this book. Humility is not a virtue I'd generally associate with white supremecists.

Also consider that Tolkien patterned the book after the mythology of Finland. Though I'm not familiar with the Finnish legends on which the book is loosely based, in the myhology of various European groups it was common to allude to people of the old days as being bigger, stronger, or even more pure. I believe the reasoning was that since the elders must have played some part in the making of the world they would have had to be bigger, stronger and etc.

	11-03-2002 08:51									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba I currently have the silmarillion sitting about 20 centimetres from me as I type this. I must get around to reading it.

The first bit of the book is a hard slog, but it picks up and in some ways becomes better than LOTR IMHO.

	11-03-2002 08:53									#43
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If you really want to find racism in Tolkien you can look at the descriptions of the humans that fought in the war. On the side of good you have the heroic, valorous and pale-skinned peoples of the North and West. Fighting for Sauron you have the Swarthy Men, the cruel Southrons and Easterlings, and "out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." But I prefer this passage:

"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace--all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind."

	11-03-2002 09:01									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The first bit of the book is a hard slog, but it picks up and in some ways becomes better than LOTR IMHO.

The first part being his letter, yis?

	11-03-2002 09:03									#45
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Mind you are most white supremacists pro-homosexuality? I don't think anyone can argue LOTR wasn't very gay at parts. I mean, Sam had some issues to work out...

	11-03-2002 09:06									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba The first part being his letter, yis?

No. I was referring to Ainulindale, which deals with the creation of the universe.

	11-03-2002 10:14									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Tolkien, along with C.S. Lewis and Aldous Huxley was a founding member of a Christian religious society at Oxford (or was it Cambidge) at a time when religion was very much on the decline.

It's little wonder that the Tolkienian mythology bears much resemblence with the Christian one.

	11-03-2002 10:33									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It's little wonder that the Tolkienian mythology bears much resemblence with the Christian one.

How so?

	11-03-2002 13:27									#49
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quote: I mean, Sam had some issues to work out...

quote: How so?

I don't want to get into this now (too late), but there was a course taught at Rutgers called Oxford Christianity and Tolkien, indicating that a lot of people do see the links between Tolkien and Christian mythology (Frodo as the Messiah).

	11-03-2002 20:00									#50
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The Silmarrilion is full of Christian elements.

Just read the first chapters. God, angels, the fallen angel becoming the devil, etc

	11-03-2002 20:18									#51
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Yes, it makes me think. It makes me think that some people can twist anything into what they want to see.
Similar to "statistics".

	11-03-2002 20:18									#52
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I think Disney is racist because ducks only date ducks and mice only date mice.

	11-03-2002 20:35									#53
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The fruit of the mating of a duck with a mouse would be an abomination!

	11-03-2002 20:56									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The fruit of the mating of a duck with a mouse would be an abomination!

Yeah, it would be a muck.

	11-03-2002 22:45									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The fruit of the mating of a duck with a mouse would be an abomination!

I think youre just predjudiced against mucks!!

	11-03-2002 22:50									#56
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What exactly was goofy anyway? He wasn't a dog.

Besides, the disney characters are all half human anyway that's why they can talk. Walt was into beastiality.

	11-03-2002 22:59									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba What exactly was goofy anyway? He wasn't a dog.

Didnt he date Clarabelle? She was a cow...

	11-03-2002 23:47									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 If you really want to find racism in Tolkien you can look at the descriptions of the humans that fought in the war. On the side of good you have the heroic, valorous and pale-skinned peoples of the North and West. Fighting for Sauron you have the Swarthy Men, the cruel Southrons and Easterlings, and "out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." But I prefer this passage: "It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace--all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind."

Good choice.

	12-03-2002 02:17									#59
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quote: Didnt he date Clarabelle?

No, the horse dated the cow.

And Goofy is a dog.

quote: If you really want to find racism in Tolkien you can look at the descriptions of the humans that fought in the war. On the side of good you have the heroic, valorous and pale-skinned peoples of the North and West. Fighting for Sauron you have the Swarthy Men, the cruel Southrons and Easterlings, and "out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues."

A. The Easterlings aren't/weren't all evil. In the distant past groups of them aided alliance against Mordor.
B. The Haradrim aren't evil either. They are a proud and warlike culture, and after the War of the Ring there was peace between Gondor and Harad.

	12-03-2002 02:18									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus And Goofy is a dog.

What is Pluto then? A really stupid dog? Or is Goofy just super-intelligent?