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dac
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of Fingers and Toes
Nov 2001
time: 00:18
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I only have annecdotal evidence to offer, but the AI does seem to target Elite units, especially injured ones. I try and retreat out my injured units either back to a safe city, or just a safe distance away. In 1.17f, that's a lot harder to do now, as instead of the AI just mindlessly marching off to sack the weakest city in my empire (where ever that might be), the offensive units seem to:
1) Target injured units
2) Target Elite units
I haven't seen enough war on 1.17 to know if there are any other targeting priorities.
One observation, the Persians declared war on my Germans, and I cannot figure out why. They didn't owe me any money, and we were on pretty good terms. The only thing I can think of was that it directly attacked the two cities I'd built specifically to culture flip a city of his that had access to iron, which I needed. Scary, if it figured that tactic out bad enough to want to eliminate those cities.
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Soren Johnson Firaxis
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Hunt Valley, MD
May 2001
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Hmm... well, maybe you guys are right. Soren? Dan? Anybody, care to comment?
-Arrian |
- all veteran units have equal probability of upgrading to elite.
and
- there is no GL creation bonus for militaristic civs.
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rpodos
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Arrian, I am glad you have found the joys of warmongering. It's not all blood and guts though, as you found. Probably the most enjoyable part, for me at least, is that I get to build all of the stuff I want, and thus create a greaaat civ.
As for the upgrading issue, I think what we've left out so far is relative unit strength. I actually mean two different things by that:
1. What is the strength benefit of the upgrade? Clearly, warrior to swordman or equal UU, archer to longbowmen, horseman to knight or equal UU, and spearman to musketman are pretty compelling. So I'll usually do those right away. But I often leave my elite knights or equal UU alone for a while.
2. Also, what is the general strength of your units versus the civs with whom you are at war? If I've achieved a tech lead, or am at least at parity, I may delay upgrading (especially for defenders in strong positions). In fact, I'll usually use the elite but less powerful unit at least one more time on a weak defender, and THEN upgrade to instantly heal. BTW, this sentiment also applies to the regular vs. vet vs. elite issue, in that I will use the AI's dramatically weaker defenders as training fodder to upgrade any straggling regulars.
Lastly and anecdotally, the AI DEFINITELY goes after weak units. I think it is just part of the algorithm deciding where to attack, and where there is the highest likelihood to win battle. The opposite, for instance, is a stack of 2-3 four-infantry armies (fortified on a mountain in a fortress!!!). The AI never (?) attacks then.
R
ps: Soren, thanks for responding about militaristic and GL creation. This devalues militaristic for me quite a lot, since I fight so much that getting elites is not a problem. Too bad, I love the samurai animation!
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ducki
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I recently started a "Can I Generate Five Leaders" game, so I thought I'd resurrect this thread in lieu of starting a new one.
I think I've figured out the single most important factor in generating Great Leaders.
Luxuries.
Yes, all the other stuff is important.
Selectively fighting with Elites, Fighting a lot with Elites, Relative Strength, and plenty of other concepts discussed here and on the Wonder Guide thread, as well as other places.
But in my game - Japan, Regent, Pangea, Large, 10 Civs, Sedentary Barbs - I've been at war from the time I had 6 horsemen and 3 swordsmen until Gunpowder, and you just can't do that with cranky civilians.
Well, you can, but it gets expensive.
I've gotten lucky. I've got 5 or 6 luxuries.
And marketplaces.
I got one Leader with a Horseman in the Late Ancient after one short war with China and in the middle of a Looooooooooong war with Egypt.
Created an Army, added the Elite* Horseman, wandered around with a Vet Sword and Elite Horseman looking for easy prey. (Workers don't count as a victory, btw). Killed an Archer and built the Epic.
Then, in 840AD, a Samurai became a Leader and I stole Sistine away from Egypt, having built SunTzu's normally. I picked Sistine over Leo's because a)I love getting 6 contents from every Cathedral and b)I hate when the AI gets 6 contents from every Cathedral.
In 900AD, another Samurai became a Leader while taking the Mongol capitol.
All this time, constant wars with China, Egypt, India, Mongolia from the BCs to nearly 1000AD, I've had a lot of WLT*D time. In fact, most of it.
Without all those luxuries, I'd either be too poor to have upgraded to Samurai and would have had to sue for peace, or I'd be having serious disorder problems.
So, I propose that Content and Happy citizens, and therefore Luxuries, are the single most important factor in generating Leaders, simply because in a Republic, it's so difficult to wage war with cranky peaceniks.
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ducki
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930AD and I'm up to 4 leaders.
Even when I'm not Militaristic, I have almost this many Elites running around, but with all these luxuries, I'm not seeing any Peaceniks.
Since I lost my first Army, I used #3 for another one, since there are no wonders to build and my empire is rather screwy, so there's no "good" place for a FP.
With #4, I just don't know what to do... I can either wait until I take a couple more cities, giving me a better spot for placement, or I can hold him, wasting all my upcoming Elite battles, or I can make another Army.
/sigh
At any rate, if you want Leaders, it seems you have to go "looking for them", not merely "maximize your Elites".
Sure, maximizing your Elites increases your chances, but if you really want leaders, you have to be willing to fight wars, long ones, or many of them. You need lots of Elite victories (and a few Elite deaths) to appease the Leader God whose name is RNG.
I'm not up to my designated 5 yet, and I may have to take a break until Cavalry, now that everyone has Gunpowder, or find those that don't have Saltpeter.
Speaking of "Getting the most out of your Elites" - I've been joining my Generated a Leader Elites into my Army.
Logic being, they're Samurai, so even when I can't use them as offense, they defend as well as Muskets, 10 hitpoints(soon to be 15) on a 4 attack is a nice nutcracker, and ...
I like the graphic.
The flagbearer, the General giving orders...
It just looks so neat.
Anyway!!!
What do you guys do with your "Leadered Elites" - Put them in Armies? Upgrade ASAP? Use them as cannon fodder?
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DaveMcW
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If my Elite* unit lives long enough it is the first to be upgraded. But I always put them on the front lines, attacking right before conscripts/regulars. Amazingly enough they sometimes do survive to be upgraded.
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ducki
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Oh, duh. The reason I responded was, I can switch from my Mil.Trad. beeline and get Music Theory in 9 turns and steal Bach's (or probably trade for Music sooner), which is why I considered waiting for Music.
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ducki
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quote:
Originally posted by Catt
Four leaders before cavalry is pretty darn good.
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The expense is mighty high, though.
My infrastructure is horrid.
I'm embarrased, actually, but that could be partly due to the fact that Japan is not industrious. Still, I don't like it.
My empire is woefully overstretched.
With leader #4, I'm seriously confused as to what to do.
Can a FP city get flipped? if so, I have nowhere to put it and no wonders to build right now. I've already got a 2-samurai, soon-to-be 3-samurai army with my spent Elite* Samurais.
It's also been expensive it terms of diplomatic development. Over half the civs think I'm Dr. Evil or Monty Burns.("I was saying Boo-urns.") 3 of the AIs are what I expect to turn into "problems" in the industrial age.
Generating leaders is definitely a decision. If you set out to create them, you will get them - assuming you pay attention to all that has been written before on this thread and the Wonder Guide thread and others. You need lots of war and lots of elites and lots of "intelligent" battles.
In light of nearly reaching my goal....
I retract all my previous whining about Leaders, though I still think the first Victorious Army for any civ should act like the Manhattan Project for Military Academy. If you make them a priority you will find them. If you don't, you might not.
Still, previous whining about leaders retracted.
I just hadn't focused on them, which is the key.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:18
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I'm typically happy with 3 leaders in ancient/early medieval warfare.
1 for a palace move for FP
1 for one major wonder
1 for an army/HE
(not necessarily in that order, of course)
Any more is gravy. I think the most I've had during that time (ancient/early medieval) is 7. That was ridiculous. IIRC, all seven were created with horsemen. I hadn't even busted out my Samurai yet. That was the game that spoiled me and sent me searching for Ultimate Power.
The wonder I like to rush with a leader is often Sun Tzu, because I sometimes struggle to build all three of the ST/Sistine/Leo trio, and if I have to let one go, it will be ST. But if a leader comes along, the problem is solved. IMO, if you manage to get those three, and the AI does not have the tech for any other wonders (Cops/Bach), you're all set . You break the cascade, make them waste tons of shields, and deny them any benifit.
In my Chinese game mentioned above, I have the Pyramids (captured), Sun Tzu, Sistine, Bach, Smith, Hoover. Well, I actually have everything except the Colossus, Oracle and Great Lighthouse (which I burned to the ground) but bear with me...
This means that every city has a free granary, barracks and hydro plant, all markets/banks/harbors built are free of upkeep, +2 content people per city, and cathedrals have 2x effect. Result: I topped out at $11,000 gold while researching at a 4 turn pace (to be fair, it's on Monarch), before I started buying factories in marginal cities. I'm down to $4500ish now, due to my last rush-buying binge, which included getting the only Ironworks-capable city in my empire up to 10 shields (10 out of 22. Temple, Cathedral, courthouse, policestation, factory all purchased after 1 turn of "building" The city did come with a marketplace and is on a river). Not bad, considering there are 4 cities between it and my palace (at my almost-perfectionist spacing, that's a ways).
I think it's time to install PTW. I bought it last weekend, but haven't got around to it yet.
-Arrian
(sorry for the rambling)
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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:18
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It seems to me that if you put the FP in a place that it could flip, it is also in a place that it can be captured or destroyed. IOW not really the best move you could make. I am not going to put an FP or a Palace in such a location. Well I will if I have the troops to smash the near by cities and thereby make the flip/capture highly unlikely. This is more common for me when I drop in on a new land mass and grab one city. The culture is a threat, but I have lots of units. They will counter and then I will start to take down near by cities and maybe cut of the roads. This slows the counter attack and reduce the culture impact.
Last edited by vmxa1 on 27-11-2002 at 08:13
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ducki
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quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
as the flip factor seems lower than ever, but that is only my perception. |
Or it could be that you've learned how to manage the flip potential better.
Familiarity changes both perception and odds for success..
... as I found out in my Leader Generation Game.
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14-03-2002 21:26
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