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Iroquois deserve to be in Civ3?
This poll is closed. |
| Yes - because they are Americans |
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10 |
19.23% |
| Yes - for no reason |
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15 |
28.85% |
| No - they weren't civilized |
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10 |
19.23% |
| No - they were too small |
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14 |
26.92% |
| I don't care |
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3 |
5.77% |
| Total: |
52 voters |
100% |
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
The Turks, the Ottoman Empire, influenced the Western World in a big way. Christianity would have been destroyed if the Ottomans had gotten past the Balkans. |
Or if the Zulus had. But they didn't either.
As history went, the Ottomans did not have all to great an influence on western Europe. They're still fun to play with, and unique enough with their emphasis on artillery.
quote:
Plus, the Iroquois did nothing to affect the World as a whole. The Americans were the only nation affected by them, and other than a few sports team names, location names, and liquor sales, Native Americans as a group haven't had much influence in the US. |
I'm inclined to agree with Lord Azrael.
Sava, go read a book (for instance Morgan or Marx). Or if you want to be taught from scratch, bring a bundle of euro's, or wampum, or whatever reliable currency you have available (the dollar is rather weak at the moment  ).
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:18
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I don't smoke, and I don't drink coffee either.
But when I speak before the council, I remember the Iroquois.
When I cherish the respect we girls have, I remember the Iroquois.
When I eat my corn, and realize how rich the harvest is, I remember the Iroquois.
When I take my herbal medicine, I remember the Iroquois.
When I look at my colorful outfit, I remember the Iroquois.
When I walk in the woods and listen to the birds singing, I remember the Iroquois.
But it is only when I hear the cannons, that I remember the Ottomans.
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Imperial-Markus
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I voted for a clear NO for the following reason:
When the Europeans arrived and began to build their colonies they were only a few hundred. The Iroquois clearly overmatched them in size but they weren't able to wipe them out. So a nation which is clearly in an advantageous position and get completely destroyed by a few hundred don't deserve it to be called a civilization. The Iroquois were uncivilized and far far behind in technological matters. Therefore they don't deserve it to be handled as a civilization furthermore their specialunit suck anyway. 
Last edited by Imperial-Markus on 26-06-2002 at 21:37
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imperial-Markus
I voted for a clear NO for the following reason:
When the Europeans arrived and began to build their colonies they were only a few hundred. The Iroquois clearly overmatched them in size but they weren't able to wipe them out. |
The Iroquois didn't WANT to wipe them out. They saw the enormous advantage that an alliance with the Europeans would give them over their rivals, and history proved them right. They built their empire on their trade with (first of all) the Dutch. The French chose to support their enemies, which cost them (the French) dearly.
Without the trade with the Europeans, the Iroquois would have gained ground much slower.
quote:
So a nation which is clearly in an advantageous position and get completely destroyed by a few hundred don't deserve it to be called a civilization. |
The Iroquois were never destroyed. As I said above, the arrival of the Europeans made them blossom. Later, after the numbers of the colonists had grown far beyond the size of the Iroquois population, they still remained the most powerful force in North America for a long time. Finally, it was internal disagreement that made the League shrink during the American War of Independence, they were never conquered.
Today the Iroquois are still largely independent within the USA and Canadian borders, with their own laws and government.
quote:
The Iroquois were uncivilized |
The main European philosophers of the 17th century and beyond disagreed with you, they thought very highly of the Iroquois democracy and way of life. The Iroquois inspired European enlightenment and specifically the French Revolution, as well as the later ideas of Marx and Engels. The US of A was modelled after their example.
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and far far behind in technological matters. |
Not at all. They were ahead of the Europeans in some fields (agriculture, government, social values, urban planning, medicinal drugs), behind in others (metallurgy, seafaring, banking, chemistry). That's why the contact was such a success for both sides.
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Jethro83
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Newcastle, Australia
Mar 2002
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by thorgalaeg
The Ribannah´s world, where the people walk backward and the cows fly. |
Let me suggest something to you. Go and read some history. And don't make such stupid comments about people. Regardless of whether you think someone is right or wrong, that does not give any right, privelage or duty to say things like that.
quote:
Originally posted by Imperial-Markus
Well yes it sounds very nice. How peaceful and tranquil people the Iros must be. Obviously Ribannah tend to forget all the cruelty done by these "nice and friendly" guys. Killing completely innocent settler families (above all French and later on British during the Independence war), forcing the wives to be their Squaws etc. |
And you can't say that kind of thing about anybody else?! How about the Nubians attacking 'innocent' Egyptians (and vice-versa), the Dorians attacking 'innocent' Greeks, the Germanic tribes attacking 'innocent' Romans. Yep, even the Anglo-Saxon tribes (ancestors of the English) were also cruel to the 'innocent' Britons, and were in turn treated cruelly by the Normans. And what about the Mongols attacking 'innocent' Chinese, Persians and Seljuk Turks? The cruelty you describe has happened everywhere in history, and to just about everyone.
Mind you, the English and French had a bit to answer for themselves in the New World.
 NOW CAN WE ALL PLEASE JUST LET THIS POINTLESS RANT DIE ?!
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23-05-2002 03:08
Yes, what's the message ?
)
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