14-03-2002 19:25									#31
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Ditto what ming said.

In SP we were all excellent game technicians. We knew how to "bend" the rules. Ming and I were in constant competition to beat each other. Without using cheats you could only accomplish things to a point. Using the cheats would allow our competitions to continue and new goals to be attained. Like max score, only reachable through cheating with food caravans. etc.

When MP came out, the same challanges faced us. Our natural curiosity took over. There was no question that some of the things that we discovered were blatant cheats. Come on, the first time MWHC and I traded units to take advantage of the infinite move cheat, and using diplos in unison to march and army halfway across a continent past defensive positions to take out a city (in the same turn) was such a blatant cheat, it was actually funny. We NEEDED to know those things could be done so we could outlaw them. MP satisfied our need to look for things on a whole new level. (what new cheats were avail now that you had a partner).

The Final product of all that is "RAH" rules. A standard that has enhanced MP by setting general guidelines of just what is or what isn't a cheat.

RAH

	15-03-2002 01:27									#32
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I see guys, so you have dealt with it and can settle down and enjoy a umm, 'friendly' game of Civ 2. You know, if you all weren't so smart you wouldn't have these problems. If I lived a thousand years I'd have never come up with half this stuff.

Tell me, I was once playing hotseat against a fellow and was agast as he rush bought something, then switched the build to something more expensive and rush bought that! He said it made things cheaper, I said it wasn't right. One should not upset the foundations of the Civ universe...it was a cheat. He got defensive and said "everyone does it".

Does everyone do that or is that also considered a cheat in your group?

Sorry to get off the topic of Xin's excellent interview momentarily...

	15-03-2002 01:49									#33
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We don't consider incremental buying a cheat. In fact we were surprised that anybody did. Especially when the programmers changed it on buildings but not on units. That's why these things must be discussed prior. And why our "normal" rules make things easy.

I don't consider this threadjacking because these were some of the issues that were a big thing when MP first came out, and Xin was one of the main pioneers. It's a shame that he doesn't play much anymore to enjoy the fruits of his early labor. "RAH" rules were based on a lot of the things that XIN discovered or came about from all the discussions we had then. But it has continued to evolve. And while he still finds ways to contribute, it's less, and we miss that and the companionship.

RAH
But it is good to read of him doing well and working his magic with other games.

	15-03-2002 03:41									#34
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I watch TV between turns

Sometimes during my turn

	15-03-2002 03:52									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Sometimes during my turn

Hmmm... that might explain many of the comments your fellow aussies make in regards to your skill level

	15-03-2002 04:41									#36
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HA! None of that motley crew has ever defeated me

	16-03-2002 02:25									#37
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Motley crew sums it up...


Now Xin... any other tales of discovery for us...
Please... Please... Please...

	16-03-2002 04:55									#38
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Incremental buying is the spawn of the devil!

	16-03-2002 13:30									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Incremental buying is the spawn of the devil!

*Wonders if Lancer has seen Xin's civ manager thread dealing with - among other things - automating incremental buying*

	16-03-2002 16:33									#40
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Ming,

I really hope your interview comes in time and is posted as scheduled, this Tuesday (Chris 62, come on!), as I really want to read the answer to my question about rah

	17-03-2002 01:03									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Ming, I really hope your interview comes in time and is posted as scheduled, this Tuesday (Chris 62, come on!), as I really want to read the answer to my question about rah

So what if it's a day or two late
Heck, weren't you months behind It will be done shortly...


OH... and if after reading the Xin Yu interview, you agree that he is one of the "masters" of the game, you can always vote for Xin Yu in the Apolyton Hall of Fame...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...;threadid=44963

	17-03-2002 06:09									#42
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Yes! Please vote there!
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...;threadid=44963

Therer are so many people who deserve to be on it who aren't. I can't vote for everybody!

	17-03-2002 17:51									#43
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Nah, Ming. It's just that you will be posted as #8, unless I send your interview to Dan tomorrow, and that's not going to happen.

	17-03-2002 18:36									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Nah, Ming. It's just that you will be posted as #8, unless I send your interview to Dan tomorrow, and that's not going to happen.

Who cares
But it is nice to see you finally doing your job again

We did finish the interview yesterday... but I'm sure it's going to take him some time to clean it up and send a copy to me for my review

	17-03-2002 20:23									#45
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What ???

I thought you'd finish it and send to me! I don't want any cleanups by Chris! I appreciate his work, but... cleaning the stuff up is MY JOB!!! I am making the interview editing, he's asking the questions and putting others into the list. Oh gawd...

And Ming, I so much want you used an instant messaging program

	17-03-2002 22:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Solver What ??? I thought you'd finish it and send to me! I don't want any cleanups by Chris! I appreciate his work, but... cleaning the stuff up is MY JOB!!! I am making the interview editing, he's asking the questions and putting others into the list. Oh gawd...

If you make ANY changes after I have approved it... You do NOT have permission to use it

	18-03-2002 10:18									#47
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LOL@Ming!
A little suspicious aren't we?

	18-03-2002 13:00									#48
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Haha, LOL. After all, I just checked, it's not there yet. OK, OK, there's still a little bit of time, but not much, I start to believe it will be Stefu posted tomorrow.

Ming, I'll be correcting all the spelling mistakes you make, remove any comments about Alexander's Horsies wife, as well as any strings where you are cursing me. After that, the interview should fit in one page.

Seriously, though, if it gets too long, I'll consider a two part interview. If it's going to be 9 pages, I got no choice, I assume.

	18-03-2002 14:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Ming, I'll be correcting all the spelling mistakes you make, remove any comments about Alexander's Horsies wife, as well as any strings where you are cursing me. After that, the interview should fit in one page.

If you take out the bits involving Evan and the Splink/YYHo incident as well it should fit in one line.

	18-03-2002 21:57									#50
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My this thread has wandered

Well, since the last time I checked, Xin Yu was viewing this thread.

Tell us some more Xin!

	18-03-2002 23:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ming My this thread has wandered

where did it go?

doesn't look to the same place my I am Borred thread went

or if it did, it has now returned

Jon Miller

	19-03-2002 01:52									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Tell us some more Xin!

You know, I want to use those posts to bump up my thread here after your interview comes up

Seriously, I'm very busy now. My wife is taking her finals and she obviously has thought about using a PhD to help her preparing. And, since she'll be back home after the finals, I need to get everything cleaned up before she comes back.

	19-03-2002 21:24									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu I need to get everything cleaned up before she comes back.

Proof again that you are a smart guy

I look forward to reading more of your "tricks of the trade" when you get a chance.

	19-03-2002 23:47									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Over time, we determinded what was a cheat... and what should and what shouldn't be done. Now, it's not even an issue... The group we play with has "standard rules" to live by... This saves the normal hour or two of arguments about what's a cheat, and allows us to start games in a matter of minutes.

A bit OT but I've been meaning to ask for ages, and since it's mentioned here: Is there a link to the rah rules? (Also how come rah gets the rules named after him? Perhaps that should be added to the questions ) I'd be intrigued to see what was finally decided upon.

	21-03-2002 00:18									#55
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Here, see rah's second post

	21-03-2002 01:03									#56
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Cheers.

One clarification:

"No alliances or tech trading (other gentleman agreements like trade treaties, tech stealing treaties are allowed but broken at will)"

So you can trade with each other, that's fine. But what's the deal with the tech stealing treaties? Is it a case of let my diplo steal a tech and I'll let yours steal one? Guess if you play with the same group you know who not to let near your cities.

Also, are potential exploits that aren't mentioned fair game?

	21-03-2002 01:32									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike So you can trade with each other, that's fine. But what's the deal with the tech stealing treaties? Is it a case of let my diplo steal a tech and I'll let yours steal one? Guess if you play with the same group you know who not to let near your cities.

i've never had any agreements, and since everyone else is evil (especially rah ), i don't let anyone near my cities if i can help it

quote: Also, are potential exploits that aren't mentioned fair game?

i don't know about exploits, i'm not a technical genius like Xin . (iirc) incremental rushing is viewed as a feature and lag-related bugs aren't allowed

	21-03-2002 02:42									#58
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We don't bother listing the blatant cheats that aren't allowed. like

No Map peaking.
No non-unit creation.
No sabotage proofing.
No cheat o matic
And all the lag related cheats.

Black clicking is allowed, but so boring that most people don't do it much. Maybe the first few turns, or later to check to see if a whale is in use before creating a city that would use it.

Incremental buying is allowed.

Trade agreements which allow caravans to be delivered are rare. Most people don't want to give an opponent that type of gold or tech bonus. In the older days some would allow a caravan but demand half the gold. Don't see that much anymore. Now we just kill the caravans.

Tech stealing agreements are also not used much anymore. When someone else has GL, and I'm rushing to a wonder, I prefer not to have opponents diplos around.


The name still annoys me, but not as much anymore. I can probably lay claim to having hosted the most mp games over the years.

RAH

	21-03-2002 03:10									#59
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Cheers for the info. My MP experience is limited (much harder to find players these days in Europe) but these seem like reasonable rules that make for a good game. You may as well be happy your name has been put to them.

	21-03-2002 05:20									#60
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quote: Originally posted by rah We don't bother listing the blatant cheats that aren't allowed. like RAH

Rah... you forgot another of the blantant cheats...
Trading units back and forth with another player during the same turn to create unlimited movement in a single turn.

Many of these rules are based on our early games with Xin. He would keep finding new ways to abuse the game, and we would all determine if they would be allowed or not.