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Tell me about what Spain has been to You.
This poll is closed. |
| Spain has been the greatest country on earth. |
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10 |
28.57% |
| Spain was a superpower of early modern time. |
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14 |
40.00% |
| Spain has been a major european power not dominating europe. |
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10 |
28.57% |
| Spain was only a colonial-power. |
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0 |
0% |
| Spain what is that? |
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1 |
2.86% |
| Total: |
35 voters |
100% |
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
Indeed, culture is another important element of the game. However, in the case of Spain, it has been argued that most of all they spread Roman culture (read: religion), not their own.
That is not to diminish the greatness of Spanish writers and architects, but we're looking for something extra here.
After all, Spain or Zululand is no comparison, but Spain is unfortunate to be situated right next to France on the map. |
I would be interested to see who has made the argument that Spain's 'culture' is restricted to the promulgation of the Roman Catholic faith. It would be like saying that the British Empire's sole contribution to culture is the promulgation of the Anglican faith, or in the case of the American colonies, a Puritan/Protestant faith.
If you take for instance, the idealized figure of the hidalgo, an argument could be made linking the notion to the Mozarabic fakir, in that a hidalgo could still be a hidalgo, bereft of clothes, money, dwelling and so forth, in much the same way that the fakir renounced worldly temptation- an idea linked to Arab/Hispanic thought on essential qualities.
Leaving aside that, you then have Spain's contribution to the European novel, the picaresque form. And of course, the far from minor contribution of Cervantes's 'Don Quixote', which translated into English (amongst other European languages) influenced the development of the novel as we know it today. And of course, it ruminates on the essence/idea of the hidalgo...
Then again, you could also talk in terms of patronage- the influence that the tastes of the Spanish monarchs had on European painting styles and music, from El Greco, Velasquez, and Zurbaran to Domenico Scarlatti's immersion in Andalusian music...
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
I would be interested to see who has made the argument that Spain's 'culture' is restricted to the promulgation of the Roman Catholic faith. |
Not 'restricted to'.
It was a reply in one of the many earlier threads on this topic (and no, I wasn't the one who supplied the argument, but for the life of me I can't remember who did  ), when someone claimed Spanish greatness in culture because they brought "their" religion (and language!) to so many parts of the world.
And we do use the name Latin America (and dance  ), after all. So that's one thing you're up against.
quote:
It would be like saying that the British Empire's sole contribution to culture is the promulgation of the Anglican faith, or in the case of the American colonies, a Puritan/Protestant faith. |
I've never seen similar claims about British or French culture.
Not that that's automatically a good thing - imposing your own 'great' culture on other peoples, on the contrary!! But it did fill the resume pages when Firaxis were making their selection.
quote:
Leaving aside that, you then have Spain's contribution to the European novel, the picaresque form. And of course, the far from minor contribution of Cervantes's 'Don Quixote', which translated into English (amongst other European languages) influenced the development of the novel as we know it today. And of course, it ruminates on the essence/idea of the hidalgo...
Then again, you could also talk in terms of patronage- the influence that the tastes of the Spanish monarchs had on European painting styles and music, from El Greco, Velasquez, and Zurbaran to Domenico Scarlatti's immersion in Andalusian music... |
All fine and interesting, and some of my favorite painters are Spanish, but I think you should be looking for another order of magnitude, things that are in the same category as the ideas behind the French revolution, or compulsory education (Germany, or Prussia rather), or freedom of thought (Greece; something Spain is apparently still struggling with) etc. Major developments in human civilization. The Inquisition would count, had it been of Spanish origin, but it's Roman ...
Anyway, just trying to reconstruct Firaxis' reasoning (which is not at all easy - see Zululand). It was their choice, after all!
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jasev
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of the SCS Forum
Feb 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
And we do use the name Latin America (and dance ), after all. So that's one thing you're up against.
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That's just because the french imposed the name (with their "veto" right) in the UN. "Iberoamerica" (including portuguese) would have been much more accurate.
quote:
All fine and interesting, and some of my favorite painters are Spanish, but I think you should be looking for another order of magnitude, things that are in the same category as the ideas behind the French revolution, or compulsory education (Germany, or Prussia rather), or freedom of thought (Greece; something Spain is apparently still struggling with) etc. Major developments in human civilization. The Inquisition would count, had it been of Spanish origin, but it's Roman ... |
OK, so the discovery and colonization of a whole continent, from Colorado to Patagonia, by a little peninsula doesn't count as a major development in the human civilization. And the spread of the greek and arabs Philosophers ideas across europe in the middle ages (never heard about "Toleto translators school")? doesn't count too. And of course, the fact that our language is the third in the more-spoken languages list (after chinese and english) is just a joke... the fact that Cervantes created the modern novel doesn't matter...
quote:
or freedom of thought (Greece; something Spain is apparently still struggling with) |
Do you know what happened to Socrates? That's the freedom of thought of the greeks. And that happened in Athens, I can't wonder what would have happened in Sparta.
And now, we've to hear from you that we have problems with the free thought. We haven't; we only have problems with those people who, charged of prejudgements, speak about our country and our culture without having idea of what they're talking about. I went to civfanatics and read your arguments. So starvation was the cause of the american colonization by the spanish?  It's even more stupid than the "restricted to roman culture" argument; and this time, you can't deny it's your argument.
Can you tell me what do you have against Spain? It seems a personal trouble.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by jasev
OK, so the discovery and colonization of a whole continent, from Colorado to Patagonia, by a little peninsula doesn't count as a major development in the human civilization. |
The Vikings discovered America much earlier and they aren't in the game either, so apparently Firaxis didn't think this was decisive. I'm not about to discuss the statement that Spain colonized a whole continent again.
quote:
And the spread of the greek and arabs Philosophers ideas across europe in the middle ages (never heard about "Toleto translators school")? doesn't count too |
That seems obvious. It helped to put Greece in the game though.
quote:
And of course, the fact that our language is the third in the more-spoken languages list (after chinese and english) is just a joke... |
Not a joke, but language is not a part of the game. It would perhaps be different if diplomacy were in some way affected. (Btw in the same post I mentioned above, the Spanish language was branded as a Roman dialect.)
quote:
the fact that Cervantes created the modern novel doesn't matter... |
A bold premise to begin with, but no. Literature is an ancient advance in the game and nothing comes after in this field. But even if it did, you would still need to consider the claims of Spain's competitors (English poetry comes to mind).
quote:
Do you know what happened to Socrates? |
A very important event on the path to freedom of thought, as it led to fierce reactions in Greek society. You might also want to consider what Socrates stood for (the existence of absolute right and wrong) something his fellow citizens apparently didn't believe in.
quote:
So starvation was the cause of the american colonization by the spanish? |
That's not what I said. I mentioned food shortage as one of the reasons why Spain had more urgent incentives than other countries to exploit the 'new world' (the continous war effort was the other reason I mentioned).
Food shortages and even times of famine were not uncommon. Spain/Hispania had them from at least the time of Millennius til the 19th century, and it was no exception (Madeira and Ireland are two examples that immediately come to mind). This is all well documented.
Note that during the golden age of Spain, its population dropped from IIRC 8 to 7 million - also not unique, eg the Iroquois population also declined in their time.
A century before Columbus, the Black Plague had killed half of the Spanish people, this to put things into perspective.
Noteworthy, however, is that Spain was slow to incorporate the new advances in agriculture, which IMHO is a major cause for Spain being overtaken as a world power.
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Can you tell me what do you have against Spain? It seems a personal trouble. |
Contrary to the prevailing propaganda, I have nothing against today Spain.
I have of course the obvious objections to historic Spanish policies (but in this Spain doesn't stand alone in my book), and I have objections against bullies no matter where they come from.
Please remember that what we are trying to do is to discover the reasons why Firaxis didn't select Spain. Claiming that this is an obvious oversight and that anyone who doesn't automatically agree is stupid, doesn't help to gain any insights.
(Btw Shaka, I'm not a USA citizen.  )
Last edited by Ribannah on 24-03-2002 at 18:03
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jasev
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of the SCS Forum
Feb 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
The Vikings discovered America much earlier and they aren't in the game either, |
This haven't been proven. And... "I'm not about to discuss the statement that Spain "... discovered... "a whole continent again."
quote:
That seems obvious. It helped to put Greece in the game though. |
Not so obvious. What I tried to say is that the spanish are responsible of the spread of greek and arab philosophy in the dark ages of Europe, through the Toledo Translators School, founded by Castillian king Alfonso X.
quote:
Not a joke, but language is not a part of the game. |
Language is an essential part of the culture, and culture is part of the game. But the origin of this discussion was not the game but the history itself, so let's forget about Firaxis for a while, right?
quote:
(Btw in the same post I mentioned above, the Spanish language was branded as a Roman dialect.) |
You shouldn't quote such a post, it seems to be written by Wiglaf.
quote:
You might also want to consider what Socrates stood for (the existence of absolute right and wrong) something his fellow citizens apparently didn't believe in. |
And he paid with his life for it.
quote:
That's not what I said. I mentioned food shortage as one of the reasons why Spain had more urgent incentives than other countries to exploit the 'new world' (the continous war effort was the other reason I mentioned). |
Anyway, it's false. there was no foot shortage in Spain at the end of the 15th century. And Spain never used its american colonies to produce food. We preferred to import seeds to plant them here (potatoes, sugar, tomatoes).
quote:
Note that during the golden age of Spain, its population dropped from IIRC 8 to 7 million. |
What did you expect? Spain sustained wars against the half of the known world and part of the unknown. A lot of people went outseas seeking fortune and nobody stayed in the fields to produce food. Food shortage was not a cause but a consequence of the Spanish America colonization.
quote:
Noteworthy, however, is that Spain was slow to incorporate the new advances in agriculture, which IMHO is a major cause for Spain being overtaken as a world power. |
Not exactly. Spain incorporated the new advances in agriculture even sooner than many other european countries, because of the moorish legacy (we introduced the arab plough in Europe, much better than old roman one).
Spain was slow to incorporate the new advances in agriculture in the second half of the 17th century, so like it happened with industrial revolution 150 years later. But in the 16th century, Spain was one of the most advanced countries in the world.
quote:
Contrary to the prevailing propaganda, I have nothing against today Spain. |
You hide it very good. Every time we've argued about spain in this forum, you've appeared and taken part against Spain.
quote:
I have objections against bullies no matter where they come from. |
Are you talking about somebody in special?
quote:
Please remember that what we are trying to do is to discover the reasons why Firaxis didn't select Spain. |
Sorry, you should have misunderstood the topic.
This thread was born because Sargon2, a german guy, said in another thread that spain was never more than a regional power. We disagreed ant then he started this poll. that's all.
quote:
Claiming that this is an obvious oversight and that anyone who doesn't automatically agree is stupid, doesn't help to gain any insights. |
Oh, it seems I offended you when I said that the "food shortage" argument was stupid. Sorry, It wasn't my intention. But if you want to avoid that, you should inform yourself about what you're talking about before.
Ribannah, it's obvious for anybody that you don't know spanish history. BTW, that thing about spain just spreading roman culture is another stupidity, no matter who wrote it; I'm glad you didn't.
About Cervantes... well, you say he didn't create the modern novel. He just wrote the first. What do you expected him to do? Writing a novel that would contain all the apportations that have received the genre in the last five centuries?
It's just a problem of semantics, but every literature professor would say you he created the modern novel, just like Picasso created the cubism or like Homer created the epic poems. A lot of people after them made vital apportations, but they came later.
Last edited by jasev on 24-03-2002 at 22:55
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by jasev
This haven't been proven. |
Actually it has. The remnants of an entire Viking village have been dug up along the coast of NE America and were dated to around 1000 AD if memory serves.
quote:
There was no foot shortage in Spain at the end of the 15th century. |
What about the Flamenco, the singing of the hungry field workers?
quote:
And Spain never used its american colonies to produce food. We preferred to import seeds to plant them here (potatoes, sugar, tomatoes). |
That is true, and it could have had more success had Spain invested more in agricultural industry like eg Britain did.
quote:
What did you expect? Spain sustained wars against the half of the known world and part of the unknown. A lot of people went outseas seeking fortune and nobody stayed in the fields to produce food. Food shortage was not a cause but a consequence of the Spanish America colonization. |
This seems at odds with what you said above. With the new crops, and specialization especially in Catalonia, Spain did fine for a while.
quote:
Spain incorporated the new advances in agriculture even sooner than many other european countries, because of the moorish legacy (we introduced the arab plough in Europe, much better than old roman one).
Spain was slow to incorporate the new advances in agriculture in the second half of the 17th century, |
That's what I was talking about. Especially the importance of crop mixing, which gave the Dutch their Golden Age, was not recognized in Spain.
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Are you talking about somebody in special? |
You can find two prime examples right above this post 
quote:
Oh, it seems I offended you when I said that the "food shortage" argument was stupid. Sorry, It wasn't my intention. But if you want to avoid that, you should inform yourself about what you're talking about before. |
Apologies accepted.
But informing oneself, which I did, only brings one so far. The power, and the attraction I might add, of the internet lies in combining the knowledge, the creativity and the vision of the many - which requires sharing your thoughts, at the risk of being wrong. Only logic can sort things out, in the end. Even then we might end up agreeing that we disagree. As long as we respect each other, we have the opportunity to grow.
Those who cannot bring themselves to that will simply be left behind in this new age.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
All fine and interesting, and some of my favorite painters are Spanish, but I think you should be looking for another order of magnitude, things that are in the same category as the ideas behind the French revolution, or compulsory education (Germany, or Prussia rather), or freedom of thought (Greece; something Spain is apparently still struggling with) etc. Major developments in human civilization. |
Ignoring the cheap and inaccurate comment about the struggle for free thought in modern Spain, a potted history of Spanish philiosophy and thought:
The emblematic year for Spain is 1492: the year of complete political unification as well as the date of the discovery of America, which gave Spain a worldly empire upon which 'the sun never set'. It marks also an extraordinary flourishing of Spanish culture, spreading over the whole sixteenth century, known as the Golden Century of Spanish culture. Philosophy was not alien to this flourishing and there were good reasons for that, mainly the heritage of tolerance and the exchange of philosophical ideas among members of the three big religions that characterized the medieval period. This facilitated the arrival in the Occident of Greek culture (through Arabic culture), and produced such remarkable thinkers as Averroës, Maimonides, and Llull, among many others.
Thus, most philosophical movements are well represented in sixteenth-century Spain. Scholasticism found a renewed impulse at the University of Salamanca. Vitoria, Suárez, and Soto developed a metaphysics separate from theology, offered new solutions to the problem of free will, and proposed valuable doctrines in logic. Their main contribution, though, was their argument for a right of peoples, which later became the basis for our current international law. Challenged by the problems of legitimacy that the Conquest and colonization of the recently discovered territories raised, Vitoria and Suárez argued against the legitimacy of war to impose a faith, and contended that native American peoples, as humans, had rights to property and self-government.
Humanism and Neoplatonism were also well represented. The humanist J. L. Vives (1492-1540), a close friend of Erasmus, defended the importance of human subjectivity as the ground of human dignity and religious life. Moreover, during turbulent years, he argued in favour of peace and concord. And Spanish Neoplatonism finds perfect expression in the Dialogues on Love of Leon Hebreo, culminating in the thoughts of the great Spanish mystics Teresa de Jesús (1515-1582) and Juan de la Cruz (1542-1591), whose central idea was of Love as the path to an intimate knowledge of God.
Finally, there was a pre-rationalist group of philosopher-physicians. F. Sánchez (1550-1623) proposed the idea 'that nothing is known', distrusting authority and tradition as foundations for knowledge, and adopted the principle of 'methodical doubt' as the right way of inquiry: an important influence on Descartes.
But 1492 had also been the year of the expulsion of the Jews: an early sign of official Spanish commitment to doctrinal purity and orthodox Catholicism. This trend culminated in the Counter-Reformation, with the rise of the powerful and infamous Inquisition and the suppression of intellectual advance. By the beginning of the seventeenth century, study abroad was forbidden and Augustine and Aquinas were the only authorized philosophers.
Three hundred years later, at the end of the nineteenth century, a new flourishing of Spanish culture took place, the Silver Age, which was dramatically interrupted by the Civil War (1936-9). In philosophy, two outstanding figures emerged, Unamuno and Ortega y Gasset, together with an important group of recognized scholars. The dominant themes of this period, which were highly influenced by German philosophy, are the questions of the bounds of reason and the human existential situation, and different versions of irrationalism were proposed.
The defeat of Spanish democracy drove into exile most intellectuals - writers, scientists, and professors. In philosophy, Ferrater Mora is perhaps the most interesting figure amongst them. Once again Augustine and Aquinas became the official philosophers in Spain.
In recent years, the new climate of political and intellectual freedom has brought a resurgence of philosophical activity. Lacking a continuous tradition, interests are plural, and sometimes combine different traditions. The most promising areas are history of philosophy, especially ancient, and moral philosophy.
A.GOM.
Bibliography J. L. Abellán, Historia crítica del pensamiento español (Madrid, 1979-1990).
M. Menéndez-Pelayo, Historia de los heterodoxos españoles (Madrid, 1978).
The Oxford Companion to Philosophy, © Oxford University Press 1995
and Ramon Llull, an influence on Leibniz:
http://cedar.evansville.edu/~ecolew...sary/llull.html
Your comment that the Vikings have not been proved to be the first Europeans to reach (North) America is interesting- the site at L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland would however seem to prove conclusively (even without the oral and written documentary evidence) that they did in fact do so:
http://www.parkscanada.gc.ca/parks/...e_meadows_e.htm
Unless of course, you're suggesting you know better than Parks Canada, international archaeologists and Unesco...
As for Cervantes and the novel- it has been asserted by many literary authorities that all the ingredients for the modern novel exist in 'Don Quixote'. It is difficult to see how Cervantes could have ensured he would create a whole genre, but I think writing his novel is feat enough in itself. As we were discussing culture, I hardly think that the Spanish contribution to Baroque and Mannerism isn't enough in itself. I don't understand why you feel the need to shift the goalposts all the time with Spain. Mention Spanish mathematicians and philiosophers, and you want Spain to have invented the wheel, or Marxian economics, or the Jacquard loom....
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XarXo
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of the "I agree"
Jul 2000
time: 05:18
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If in Civ3 we've "English", we must have "Castillians" in the place of "Spanish" or "Spaniards". Castillians created the spanish language, also they dominated the court, the diplomacy, etc...
Ok, you can say me "Spain is most known than Castilla", but we also know more "United Kingdom" than "England" and everybody know that the correct name for the tribe is the second one.
Please respect this, and yes, like with "English" and "British" the origin of this is a political reason.
Thanks for your patiente.
EDIT: About Ramon Llull
Ramon Llull wrote in Arabic, Latin and Catalan. He lived during the Crown of Aragon period, also he (as I said) doesn't wrote in castillian, so he is not spanish. If we consider that people that lived before a state formation are from this nation Slavian Makedonjan are truly equals to the Greek Macedonian. Ask this to Markos Giannopoulos and read the answer.
And please, no more "Raimundo Lulio", is like to read "Francisco Sinatra" (Frank Siantra), "Jorge Buch" (George Bush) or "Melchor Hijodegib" (Mel Gibson).
Last edited by XarXo on 25-03-2002 at 22:41
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Ignoring the cheap and inaccurate comment about the struggle for free thought in modern Spain, a potted history of Spanish philiosophy and thought: |
Which was obviously not directed at you, your contributions in this thread (and others) are excellent and honorable. 
quote:
But 1492 had also been the year of the expulsion of the Jews: |
And the Moslims that still lived in Spain. The Gypsies didn't have a great time either, but what else in new. 
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I don't understand why you feel the need to shift the goalposts all the time with Spain. Mention Spanish mathematicians and philiosophers, and you want Spain to have invented the wheel, or Marxian economics, or the Jacquard loom.... |
Yes, the same point that I have tried to get across in various discussions, but so far in vain. Spain is a beautiful country with a rich and impressive history, there is absolutely no need to make it look another two sizes bigger. 
Last edited by Ribannah on 27-03-2002 at 17:28
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by jasev
I'll suppose you're joking  . |
Music, and art in general, can give a lot of historical information. Maybe you forgot that while the guitar and the dance are a much later development, the cante originates from the 15th century.
"Flamenco is full of this, of pain, of sorrow, of the persecution of the gypsy people, the condion of being left out, Andalucia and poverty, and of hunger."
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1192/luzia2.html
http://es.geocities.com/guitarraesp...theflamenco.htm
(Plenty more where these came from.)
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22-03-2002 21:38
)
If you counter her point too well, the discussion quickly shifts to something related, but not quite there. Very tiring. Hints of TROLL, imho. 
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