25-01-2001 08:47									#31
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i like that idea someone else posted before of revolutions (loyalist to you and loyal to government). Another concept inside it would be that the cities happiest under your rule are the ones that stick with you (with a slight random factor) and less happy ones would become free cities that are unable to grow or build stuff and have nothing inside them. But only the Loyalist or Opposition could capture them. The discontent-ish cities (and the random factor) would become your opposition and the new civ you have to destroy. Other civs could give you or them money/ units but could not intervenewith their own controlled units.

	25-01-2001 14:09									#32
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Mr Fun points out a very interesting thing .. Democracy (or democratic principles) do not make the nation a pacifistic one.. I think the nature of democracy is to reflect society (or those who have a voice in society).

As a child my grandfather told me how proud he was on Empire day, when the class would stand round the flag and sing patriotic songs .. My friends in India talk often about how there grand parents remember the British Raj, and how they wish it would return .. I know few Indian youth who would surrender their nation to the UK, and few British youth who would want to rule over them (apart from in CIV of course ).

So whats changed ?

Education ! i feel is a central key to this. It was Education that gave Gandhi his voice, and education which allows us to not just accept the word of others.

My grandfather believed Imperialism was right.. it gave "more primitive" people a chance to take part in an industrial world.. I believe Imperialism is wrong, because absolute power, corrupts absolutly .. and that knowledge is gained through education.

So I think that democracies become more pacifist, as the society becomes more educated ..

PS.. please get rid of the idea that Democracies have no corruption ... You don't have to look very far to see how silly that idea is .. India is especially a very corrupt democracy .. this should be reflected

	25-01-2001 20:04									#33
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India claims to be a democracy today, while it still pratices the slavery of children.

I found it very revealing when I realized that the South region of the United States was the only region of a modern, industrialized nation to still burn people alive from 1870s through 1930s. Yes, European nations in the same period persecuted natives of their colonies with bayonet, firing squads and the noose, but at least they refrained from burning them alive.

And in some ways, the Confederacy that existed during the Civil War is comparable to Nazi Germany during World War II.

	25-01-2001 21:29									#34
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I think we all seem to agree that the sweeping choice of less than a dozen Government types is inadequate to produce all the different examples we have seen in the world. For this reason I am inclined to prefer an approach more in keeping with SMAC where a democracy could migrate from slave-owning to imperialist to corporate or environmental while remaining principally "democratic". However moving from democracy to communism or fundamentalism should be much harder and certainly not possible if the populace are happy with their current government. Well fed, well paid and well educated citizens will never have enough motivation to overthrow their leaders. A few fanatics may indulge in espionage or terrorism but that is pretty inevitable in any society.

	26-01-2001 07:58									#37
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Let's not forget the increase in number of socialist organizations in the United States during the early 20th century. Helen Keller herself was a prominent socialist organization member, although I forgot which organization she belonged to.

	27-01-2001 00:55									#38
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I totally agree that switching governments should not be like changing your clothes...CIV3 should put a price tag on a government change, to save players from changing governments out of mear convinence.

	27-01-2001 02:08									#39
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But wittlich:

What about the early-game switch from Despotism/Tyranny to Monarchy? Shouldn't that be a painless transition? Essentially, that represents a day when the local Warlord declares his family to be the rightful rulers of the land, and his son the rightful heir to the throne, and that's all there is to it.

	27-01-2001 05:22									#40
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[QUOTE]But wittlich: What about the early-game switch from Despotism/Tyranny to Monarchy? Shouldn't that be a painless transition? Essentially, that represents a day when the local Warlord declares his family to be the rightful rulers of the land, and his son the rightful heir to the throne, and that's all there is to it. [END QUOTE]

A valid and justified point.

How about this in order to curb the abuse of constant government change: The initial advancement to a new form of government is allowed without penalties/price. If you change back to an old form of government, there is a price to pay. The price to pay can even be a minor price (50 gold), but at least there would be a price for your constant government changes.

	29-01-2001 21:54									#41
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Seems to mee that an implementation of propaganda is needed.
If you wan't to make major changes in the society all u have to do for avoiding too much rioting and revolutions is simply to convince the major part of your people that the changes are 'the right thing to do'. This can easily be done if you have money. Bye force and threat or bye promises and sweet lies.
I'm pretty sure this would really be fun as long as it's not too complicated, and i'm also sure that most governments in the world, including democracies, are spending billions on propaganda.
Also, i sort of like the SMAC government model.