18-03-2002 23:55									#31
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Suprised people would support a repressive regime over a democracy.

Well It wouldnt happen. Taiwan is the Israel of the pacific. They pretty much have are unflinching support. China niether has the logistics nor the technological edge to defeat Taiwan, let alone a USA backed Taiwan.

Any rhetoric coming from Beijing is political.

	19-03-2002 01:44									#32
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quote: Suprised people would support a repressive regime over a democracy.

Before the elections, Shrubya said Musharraf was good for his country because he brought stability. So he prefers a dictator, which he now supports, over a democracy.

Also, I might be wrong about this, but I thought there weren't any open elections in taiwan either prior to 2000. (might be wrong about this). So if this is true, the US supported Taiwan long before it became a true democracy.

	19-03-2002 02:24									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Before the elections, Shrubya said Musharraf was good for his country because he brought stability. So he prefers a dictator, which he now supports, over a democracy

Damn Im getting sick of these strawmen

Umm so thats pretty damn irrelevant. Your drawing some paralell's here. Your saying its =ok= for a Dictatorship one side of the globe, to conquer a Democracy. Because USA supports a dictatorship on the other side? Very idiotic Logic here. Unless im missing somthing.


So what does Musharref has any bearing in this? Who cares.Thats completely irrelevant in the straights of Taiwan. And if you Support Chinese unificant via force. And this is your reason. It sounds more like a concokted excuse for taking yet another anti-american view.

quote: Also, I might be wrong about this, but I thought there weren't any open elections in taiwan either prior to 2000. (might be wrong about this). So if this is true, the US supported Taiwan long before it became a true democracy.

Nope. Taiwan has alwys had Elections. Since Chang died anyway. I believe. Just type in Taiwan in a search engine.

	19-03-2002 02:53									#34
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OK, just typed Taiwan into a search engine.

They had martial law from 1949 to 1987 and had the first democratic legislative elections in late 92 and the first presidential elections in 96.

Oh and the cold war is filled with incidents of the US overthrowing democratically elected governments in favor of dictatorships.

	19-03-2002 04:12									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader Oh and the cold war is filled with incidents of the US overthrowing democratically elected governments in favor of dictatorships.

Another irrelevant troll. What does that have to with USA's alliance with a DEMOCRATIC Taiwan.

knock it off.

	19-03-2002 04:18									#36
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Another irrelevant troll. What does that have to with USA's alliance with a DEMOCRATIC Taiwan. knock it off.

It serves to proove the fact that Taiwan being democratic is actually irrelevant to the US government.

	19-03-2002 04:22									#37
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That still doesn't answer him. You're saying that the world should stand by while Taiwan's invaded because the US supported a dicatorship in the past.

Isn't the EU also being hypocritical in supporting Iraq despite violations of peace treaties while condemning the leader of the democratically elected USA and Israel?

That's irrelevant.

1) The question was should the EU help the Taiwanese.

2) Doesn't Taiwain have nuclear weapons?

	19-03-2002 04:23									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin It serves to proove the fact that Taiwan being democratic is actually irrelevant to the US government.

And its against the rule book to support a modest anti-communist dictatorship against a Large repressive communist one?


I dont get it. It was the cold war. who cared then. Moreover ; why should anyone care now? One has predictably changed. The other is still as repressive as ever.

quote: Tiwain have nukes?

No. But I believe the USA would use nukes against any chinese invasion fleet. If convential means failed

	19-03-2002 04:56									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Well, I think France would respond by immediately surrendering.

I literally fell off my chair when I read this! Good one!

	19-03-2002 09:29									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller note to aall this is a hypothetical thread as far as I can tell JOn Miller

100-0

My this thread took an unexpected, yet amusing, turn.

	19-03-2002 10:01									#41
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Do you really think that some one could miss this line?

quote: this is a hypothetical thread as far as I can tell

If such events were real, probably we all be already dead because of nuclear war.

	19-03-2002 10:12									#42
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory And its against the rule book to support a modest anti-communist dictatorship against a Large repressive communist one?

Before 1987, one was just as repressive as the other. The Americans chose to support Taiwan, not because it was more "free", but because it was anti-communist.

The point remains that the US has no qualms in supporting repressive and corrupted dictatorships (Taiwan before 1987, South Vietnam, etc.), despite its claims of "defending liberty".

quote: No. But I believe the USA would use nukes against any chinese invasion fleet. If convential means failed

Better hope that doesn't happen! If so then we'd probably be dead.

	19-03-2002 10:19									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Do you really think that some one could miss this line? If such events were real, probably we all be already dead because of nuclear war.

I was really bored

I was hoping something would happen

was thinking of others like me

JOn Miller

	19-03-2002 10:33									#44
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Before 1987, one was just as repressive as the other. The Americans chose to support Taiwan, not because it was more "free", but because it was anti-communist. The point remains that the US has no qualms in supporting repressive and corrupted dictatorships (Taiwan before 1987, South Vietnam, etc.), despite its claims of "defending liberty".

Thats still completely irrelevant. Taiwan changed. And the martial law imposed from Tapai, was hardly repressive. Just against illicit communism. China didnt. And besides, there is nothing wrong with backing the lesser of the two evils to see the evilest (that a word?) crumbles. Its not a Moral Hazard, its just how it all works.

quote: Better hope that doesn't happen! If so then we'd probably be dead.

Ya thats why we got the NMD going. Chinese/NK cant reach us with bombers

	19-03-2002 10:35									#45
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I think we should let the Strawberry Advocates take over Tawain and install a new republic government.

	19-03-2002 10:36									#46
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dp (fter teh fact

	19-03-2002 10:52									#47
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Ya thats why we got the NMD going. Chinese/NK cant reach us with bombers

Keep dreaming.

	19-03-2002 11:03									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Keep dreaming.

Give us time. We will be the one's laughing at you cause 8000 of your warheads are piss obselete. We can already hit the missiles from 100 miles up like the test saturday.

	19-03-2002 11:17									#49
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Give us time. We will be the one's laughing at you cause 8000 of your warheads are piss obselete. We can already hit the missiles from 100 miles up like the test saturday.

Did history teach you nothing? any new weapon/defence system borns a new counter measures. Do you realy think that everybody will give you a lot of time to create something unbeatable? It's nonsence. No matter what type of defence you will create other countries will create a weapon systems which will easy penatrate your NMD (it is much easyer to create offence systems). This called a arms race, and it's too bad that YOU start it again.

	19-03-2002 12:44									#50
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...you still have to have the dinero to research and implement the countermeasures to a missle shield...

	19-03-2002 13:21									#51
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Write now we don't have to. We already have the countermeasures. But, only hypotheticaly, if USA will be able to develop something really good, which as FG said could make our nukes obsolete (as for me 0.001% is proper probability for this) then we'll develop something absolutely new also. Even after collapse of SU we are the second largest arms exporter in the world and we are constantly improve our weapons and develop new ones, it's perhaps our most favorite buissnes- to create weapons.
As for price of counter measures, it is much cheaper to develop say 20 new ICMB which cannot be stoped by new NMD, then to create and to install a 1000 of interceptor missiles.

But this is the dead end. Instead of reduction of nukes USA push the world to new arms race. It's very sad that you choose this way.

	19-03-2002 13:31									#52
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The russian S-300 SAM Missiles already have limited anti-ballistic capabilities... (I know because we have bought some - Cyprus did in fact).


So the russians seem to already have worked on that kind of technology long before. And it works too

	19-03-2002 19:42									#53
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Thats still completely irrelevant. Taiwan changed.

So? What rights the US has in interfering with another countries internal affairs?

quote: Originally posted by faded glory And the martial law imposed from Tapai, was hardly repressive. Just against illicit communism.

Which history book have you been reading?

quote: Originally posted by faded glory And besides, there is nothing wrong with backing the lesser of the two evils to see the evilest (that a word?) crumbles.

So why is communism evil? It's just some kind of knee-jerk reaction some Usians have.

quote: Originally posted by faded glory Ya thats why we got the NMD going. Chinese/NK cant reach us with bombers

Keep wasting $$$ on something that won't work like a good boy.

	19-03-2002 20:16									#54
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quote: And the martial law imposed from Tapai, was hardly repressive. Just against illicit communism.

As has been pointed out, there weren't any democratic elections prior to the end of the martial law. Still, the US supported Taiwan eventhough it wasn't a democracy. So the claim that the US will defend Taiwan against an autocratic China, because Taiwan is a democracy doesn't hold. The US promised to defend Taiwan before it was a democracy, and would still defend Taiwan if it wasn't a democracy nowadays. Don't take the moral high ground here. The sole reason the US will defend Taiwan is cause they still don't particulary like China or the communists (surprise surprise), and not because Taiwan happends to be a democracy and China isn't.

	19-03-2002 20:29									#55
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My take is this.

The US may pay all the lip services it wants about defending Taiwan etc., but when push comes to shove the US won't do a thing.

Primarily, the US is selling lots of weapons to Taiwan, so it will have to appear to take the moral high ground. But once the missiles start falling, regardless whether the PRC is successful in invading Taiwan, the island's economy will be completely destroyed.

No economy = no money for weapons. There's no point for the US to anger Beijing for no gain. *insert cynical smilie*

	20-03-2002 02:27									#56
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Yes sir, Communist governments aren't evil.

The Great Leap Foward.

Gulags in Siberia.

the Warm Spring in Prague.

the 5 Year Plans.

I could list several dozen other ways Communist governments have repressed their people, including blatant genocide.

But then, America does that too.



BTW, am I to take it that Europe wouldn't defend a democracy against a dictatorship/communist state? Which, you know, implies a great deal about your own values.

	20-03-2002 05:24									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I think we should let the Strawberry Advocates take over Tawain and install a new republic government.

This seems to be the most plausible argument.

Though I still don't know what Europe is doing.

	20-03-2002 05:26									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Though I still don't know what Europe is doing.

Cowering in a corner muttering to themselves.

	21-03-2002 06:21									#59
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Not what they're doing now. What will they do when the **** hits the fan.

	21-03-2002 08:14									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin Yes sir, Communist governments aren't evil. The Great Leap Foward. Gulags in Siberia. the Warm Spring in Prague. the 5 Year Plans. I could list several dozen other ways Communist governments have repressed their people, including blatant genocide.

What say you go study communism a bit more, maybe reading some of Marx's works, before jumping to conclusions.

quote: Originally posted by Faeelin But then, America does that too.

That just shows "democracy" can be just as bad as totalitarian governments.

quote: Originally posted by Faeelin BTW, am I to take it that Europe wouldn't defend a democracy against a dictatorship/communist state? Which, you know, implies a great deal about your own values.

My value? I value my words. I will do as I say. Since I have said that Taiwan is not a country, who am I to defend it?