31-01-2001 21:23									#31
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Im all for Formers/Engineers instead of PW but that is partly because I found CTP2 didn't give you enough information to easily pick the optimum places to improve (or prompt you when you had enough PW saved.)

I liked the Civ 1 palace because it was customisable. The Civ 2 and CtP pictures were a poor replacement and I certainly would not like them reimplemented in Civ 3.

Stacked combat was the best idea introduced by CtP and I will take a lot of persuading that Civ 3 will work effectively without it. Armies do not queue up to allow units to attack each other individually until one side runs out.

ToT introduced the extended game but ruined it IMO by having such muddy graphics that after only a few experiments I fled back to Civ 2 just to reduce eye strain.

	01-02-2001 10:03									#32
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Civ 1:
doesn't anyone else miss the little tech-tree quiz at the beginning which was used for copy-protection?

Civ 2:
most of the wonder movies were barely movies at all. Most of them were movies of static pictures (colossus, michelangelo's chapel). Nothing beats the Manhatten Project or Women's Sufferage though. or the music on Leonardo's workshop.

as for balanced units in civ2, what about howitzers? first thing I did was remove the Ignores-City-Walls ability.

so far the argument against Public Works has been that you keep forgetting to use them. Hmmm.

just my 1.25 pence worth

	01-02-2001 01:13									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I've found on old sixpence, is that close enough?

I'd agree with most of the input so far.

Some plusses for CTP2, Combat Model is good, the space cities went away, the Oceanic cities stayed (Josef - they are very late in the game and the military units at the time can move aplenty). Yaay the expanding city radius!

MrFun is right about military support costs being shared accross the empire. Although Civ2 did have "Support from this City".

-Related if Settlers and Engineers were expensive to support, this could represent the investment into infrastructure, production would effectively be diverted into terrain improvement.

Lee - just out of interest how would you describe the Great Wall (The other pile....)

Was I the only one who liked the heralds?
[This message has been edited by down th' pub (edited January 31, 2001).]

	01-02-2001 11:29									#34
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You forgot to mention BUILD QUEUE's!!! More than anything else, build queues in CTP allowed you to reduce micromanagement by half. There is, of course, the obsolescence problem, but for the dull periods, it's superb. I started my first game of Civ2 in ages, and i missed those build queues by 1000AD.

As for Public Works, a good compromise would be to give settlers/engineers multiple orders, like in Total Annihilation.

Actually, the heralds remind me of another thing i was thinking of. In my limited knowledge of programming, i expect that creating "real video" wonder movies would be infinitely simpler than creating them in CGI. Combined with the common belief that the Civ2 videos were superior, they should make "real video" wonders, but also extend that to advances as well. Of course, the high council can be kept for that reason, too. Only future techs need more than real video, but CTP went too far on that anyway. Civ3 only needs a couple to reflect currently developing technologies into full-blown use, and maybe a couple of others to get cool military units to kick arse in the late game

What Civ3 needs?

Build queues
Multiple orders for settlers/engineers
High Council
Heralds
Better graphics (already done, it seems!)
Better diplomacy
Better warfare
Customisation
Natural disasters!

There's more, but i could be here all day

	01-02-2001 16:03									#35
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Build queues? Damn straight! It would also be cool to add something like CTP2's national manager that allows you to update/append/overwrite several or all queues simultaneously. Also, the urban planner unit in CTP2 is pretty cool (it builds cities in the modern age that come with several basic improvements out of the gate).

	01-02-2001 19:50									#36
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Well, the Great Wall at least had a practical use.

I didn't mind the animated heralds. I think that much of the negative reaction to them stems from the fact that they tended to max out the typical system in use when Civ 2 was released; since they were pure system-resource-guzzling chrome, people just switched them off in annoyance. Modern hardware can of course display the heralds without even breaking a sweat.

	02-02-2001 10:39									#37
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Heralds... wait, do you mean those guys in Civ2 who would randomly wave their limbs like Shields and Yarnell and occasionally jump or dance? Or do you mean something else?

	02-02-2001 00:11									#39
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Oh. That's the High Council.

	02-02-2001 02:13									#40
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"Give me more soldiers, noble leader, that they may shead their swords in the beating hearts of our enemies!"

or

"sir! The people! They can't help fallin' in love with you!"

These are the advisors

The animated heralds are those guys who constantly do warm-up movements, stretch their limbs, jump, and do all sorts of silly movements.

My point is not that, of course, it's this: I'm in for the advisors, but but the diplomacy screen (heralds) I prefer a newer rendition of Civ I's diplomacy screen; with the face of the opposite leader actually talking to you, with mimics, gestures etc. That would look great in 3D. I want that back!

	02-02-2001 02:23									#41
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The High council I liked too, but I did mean the heralds, you could tell how they felt towards you by their body language (and the viking lady was foxy).

The build queues are a must too, you forget how useful they are until you don't have them.