21-03-2002 23:55									#31
	thanks Inflate your Upload Space

Thanks Martin

	22-03-2002 01:48									#32
	Re: er ... Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal ElvisMonster and others. I want to be clear. I don't think any of this is a good idea no matter how historically accurate, or how much of a driving engine it was for that historical period. The micro situation is: some things don't belong in games.

Sorry, but the topic has already been included in games. IE: CTP1/2 uses Technocracy/mind controllers/AI Entity as its version of Socialist Nationalism. It's also a very clear-cut impression of eugenics. The government requires everyone to be a certain standard of citizen.

quote: The macro is: I am concerned that the impact of the Holocaust is lessening over time, or not fully understood by younger generations, such that an idea like this can even be toyed with.

Firstly, I wouldn't necessarily put myself as "younger generation". Yes, it's a shame that the Holocaust is lessening in impact over time. But other things from that period have lessened in impact as well. Ask any school-age person today about their impressions of the war and they won't understand what happened or what it was like. Everything lessens in impact over time. Look at the lack of impact of September 11 to us today, and that's only 6 months ago.

Also, as for the topic of "genocide", what do you think you're doing to the AI already when you wage war? Destroying it, not conquoring it.

quote: But I'm not the driving force and this will get made (or not) regardless of my opinion. Take my comments to say "If you insist on driving over that cliff, be sure and wear your seat belt".

That's right. My MOD is going to retain eugenics as a researchable advance, with it's accompaning wonder "Social Toleration" which increases Civ happiness. I think this is a reasonable and acceptable thing to do with, what I believe, one of the driving forces behind the era.

	22-03-2002 02:02									#33
	Put an end to popups!

Dale,

Even though we share different views concerning the inclusion of the Holocaust (or related philosophies) in CTP2, it's apparent that your motivation and intent isn't to trivialize or glorify this horrific chapter in history. I appreciate your well thought out and (for the most part ) rational arguments as to why you feel incorporating these events into "World At War" would make it a more complete mod. However, I think TheArsenal has summed it up the best...

quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal I want to be clear. I don't think any of this is a good idea no matter how historically accurate, or how much of a driving engine it was for that historical period. The micro situation is: some things don't belong in games. The macro is: I am concerned that the impact of the Holocaust is lessening over time, or not fully understood by younger generations, such that an idea like this can even be toyed with.

Some concepts and truths just can't be appreciated for what they are in the context of a game. And when it's all said and done, CTP2 is just that. A game. A game that we all enjoy immensely, but a game nonetheless.

I look very forward to playing the "World At War" mod. I trust that whatever decision you make as to the subject at hand, will (at the very least) be well thought out.

Thank you for the debate.

	22-03-2002 02:32									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

ElvisMonster:

I think I might take the safe route and not include anything related to the Holocaust. It's a very dividing issue, and both sides of the coin are extremes. A "happy medium" is what the most people will enjoy.

As for the topic of eugenics, I'll keep that advance for the simple reason that many countries/societies across the world at the time advocated the idea of "bettering society through selection". It wasn't just Germany, Japan or Italy that practised eugenic ideals. Most of the developed nations of the world did, including USA, UK, France, USSR, Australia, China and Brazil. In a way, Switzerland had a strong eugenic movement too. The wonder I'm associating with eugenics, Social Toleration, is based on the understanding we reached due to eugenics that toleration of other nations/races/ideals is necessary to function in a global society.

In this way, I see it as recognising the driving belief of eugenics which led to Socialist Nationalism, while not trivialising the events that occured due to the beliefs. The Social Tolerance wonder should teach us that in this modern global society we need to work together, not against, to progress into the 21st century.

I hope this satisfies the masses.