25-03-2002 01:19									#91
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quote: Well, the people in the Occupied Territories certainly don't. The West expects better of Israel because Jews had to go through what they are now dishing out and because, as it's defenders continually point out, it is a democracy. But it is a nasty, brutish, little thug of a state. Many of us in the West also sincerely believe that Israel's efforts at combatting terrorism are counter-productive, and we'd like to see Israel live in peace.

Look, the israeli arabs live in good conditions. Most of the wrong is now due to the unwillingness of traditional factions to cooperate with the state and modernize.

As far as the occupied territories are concerned - Israel never seen them as Israel proper. Except for the settlements, no plans have been made for them.

As far as our treatment of the palestinian palestinians, i'm terribly sorry but if they use terror, they're gonna be subjected to harsh means of prevention.

quote: By engaging in collective punishment of the whole Palestinian people for the actions of a few, Israel only engenders more hate among it's occupied.

Again I reiterate:

Closures are not "punishment". They are preventive measures, that are very often used on Israeli cities, Haifa included. This is meant to block terrorist access on main axis.

quote: This in turn creates more terror, which brings down harsher repression upon the whole Palestinian people, which continues the cycle of hatred and violence.

Obviously a harsh response to terror will provocate more terror.

However, sincerely, inaction is much more deadly. Sept 11 proved that.

quote: Or Israel does boneheaded stuff like undermining people who it can work with. For the first decade of its existence, Hamas received funds from Israel, because Israel hoped that the conservative Islamic group would undermine the secular-socialist PLO.

The PLO, while secular, is very nationalistic and in reality has always rejected the idea of an Israeli state.

They themselves admit that the Oslo accords are a "tactical phase" in a "strategy of destroying Israel".

If anything, Hamas are better, since they are honest about their intentions.

quote: Well, they succeeded, only to see Hamas sponsor terrorist.

And Arafat.

Documents captured in the previously palestinian "Orient House" in east Jerusalem, show links between Arafat and terrorists from the Fatah and Tanzim. They have his signed orders to transfer payments to terrorists, who are NOT part of the palestinian police.

quote: Ceterus parabus, I'd rather see the the world be the United States not Saddam's Iraq. However, all things are not equal, and Iraq has a very short reach, where as no place on Earth is safe from the US.

The US is at least, good for it's citizens. Which is more than most "evil" countries can say.

I don't see the US responsible for anyone except their citizens.

quote: If I'm in the woods, and I have to choose between a path with poisonous snake or one with a bear, I'll take the snake.

Why not the bear?

He's not poisonous and if I roll down and play dead, he'll leave me alone.

quote: Anyway, it isn't a choice between a Saddam world or an US world. It's a choice between a world in which little thugs are propped up by the US, and the US gets to do what it wants, where it wants, to whomever it wants or a more just one. After all, it was because it was a US world that Saddam got into power in the first place.

I would think that Saddam got into power on his own. However the US did increase his status.

quote: Ideally I want a world without Iraq, the US, and Israel, and all other states for that matter.

Ideally, I want a world with US Iraq and Israel, which can cooperate and don't try to kill anyone.

	25-03-2002 01:21									#92
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BTW, .01597989942 is the growth rate I get for the Arab population in Palestine, assuming insignificant immigration (using the aforementioned continuous approximation).

	25-03-2002 01:24									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin This is really a poxy-proof! It proves nothing at all! A simple calculation with a population growth of 1,5% per year would explain the entire increase i arab population 1870-1946. The 1,5% figure is quite normal for 3rd world countries today. The same growth of jews without immigration would give a total population of about 22 000 in 1946.

Yeah, I kinda walked a thin line with that one

Look, the fact that they immigrated is a known one, which I have read.

The problem is - I do not write down my sources.

I think I will begin.

quote: So your statement that this is proof in itself is not a valid statement at all. In fact it would suggest that the immigration of jews in the area greatly exceeds the arab net-migration.

?
in thousands:
Pals: 1,200 - 350 = 850
Jews: 600 - 7 = 593

quote: If one wants to understand the rate of net-migration of arabs one has to use other numbers than raw population figures. Population growth numbers would be nice for example so one can estimate the influence of immigration of both groups.

Yeah I know.

Hey, I was tired. T'was a cheap shot

	25-03-2002 01:24									#94
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Krop:at 3.4% it is working. but that's mighty high. ....
that's like each family having 10 kids or something... oh wait..


Ramo: ... but I guess I'll know all about it next year... ...

quote: t=t-1*1,015

that should be a plus over there, right?

quote: because Jews had to go through what they are now dishing out

that's disrespectful for all people who actually did suffer a genocide. Jews , Armenians, Gypsies/Romani... your comparison is awful. I know that many things our government does are wrong , but I still find Israel as the one that is morally on top. Our moral supremacy is grinding though, still every terror act reinvigorates it.

quote: Ideally I want a world without Iraq, the US, and Israel, and all other states for that matter.

no. no no no no no... we need the government !!! stop spewing Anarchist crap !!! ... N/O Ramo

quote: Name one useful thing Palestine has done, ever. Enlighten us, Kamrat.

That has nothing to do with anything , FireDragon.
on a side note , how could it if it never existed in the first place?

	25-03-2002 01:26									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo BTW, .01597989942 is the growth rate I get for the Arab population in Palestine, assuming insignificant immigration (using the aforementioned continuous approximation).

EEEK!!

A mathematician

	25-03-2002 01:34									#96
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Zionism is a political movement, not a race or ethnicity. Saying your're a "insert insult here" is not racism, nor does it border on racism. Judaism != Zionism, nor vice versa.

finy, then it's a political insult equating to that.

Saying that a zionist is expected to be stupid, is just as bad as saying a jew is expected to be stupid.

	25-03-2002 01:41									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 Thats in the result the same isnt it

It's the intention that matters.

Murder in the first degree is not equal to Capital Punishment, while the result is similar.

quote: The Arabs accuse Israel of selectiv politics, when giving permits for building houses. Jews get them easy, Arabs dont. I havent seen evidence for that, but I tend to believe them anyways. Why shouldnt they go get a permit, if they could get one, and prevent this way to get their houses destroyed?

Part of the problem is racist. I admit. If I ever get to politics I will change this.

However, a major part is practical.

The traditional arab society is used to building houses on thier own, where they want it. Their causing can do that for them.

To get a permit to build a house, you have to lease the land, have a permitted contractor, pay taxes, use certain quality materials, permit things like pipes and roads etc.

Private people don't build houses. They buy them from contractors who build them.

Most of the traditinal arab society does not agree with all those conditions.

And Israel, mostly, ignores the illegal buildings, until they reach a certain level.

	25-03-2002 01:51									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo BTW, .01597989942 is the growth rate I get for the Arab population in Palestine, assuming insignificant immigration (using the aforementioned continuous approximation).

then you're wrong.



if I use 1.5% as growth rate, I get aroun 660 thousand.
try to run that program of mine. you'll see.

the whole Arab Israelis are discriminated issue. I believe it has very little to do with racism. Arab towns recieve relatively less funding just like the jewish towns recieve relatively less funding. All the areas that are not in the center of Israel have this problem.


Let me tell you a story of a mixed city in Israel ,called Lod. The city is a ****ing war zone. the arab yes THE ARAB drugdealers , ( this is a distinctive family bussiness ), have got the whole city authorities in their holes. in gang clashes , an anti-tank missile was fired a month or so ago. I know what I will do if I get into politics. Clean this town.

	25-03-2002 01:58									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov ? in thousands: Pals: 1,200 - 350 = 850 Jews: 600 - 7 = 593

Yes, the number of pal/arab immigrants would be larger than the number of jews if the growth of the population without be 0 but that's not the case. Since the jewish population would be just about 22,000 instead of 600,000 if they increased in the same rate as the pals suggests that migration was very important for the increase of the jewish population (as we already know of cource). Take for example the increase from 61,000 in 1920 to 165,000 ten years that of cource was many the result of immigrants. It's impossible to know the numbers of immigrants in the different groups from those numbers but I would bet my money that the jews where more in absolute terms. Still it would be insteresting to see any migration numbers for both groups if you have any around.

	25-03-2002 02:00									#100
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quote: Originally posted by FireDragon Name one useful thing Palestine has done, ever. Enlighten us, Kamrat.

What kind of stupid and ignorant remark is that? Could you please leave, we're having an adult conversation here in case you didn't notice...

	25-03-2002 02:11									#101
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It's a very simple differential equation.

dP/dt = rP Where P is population and r is the annual rate of increase.

The general solution is (if you've learned differentiation, you can verify this):
P(t) = C*exp(rt)

Plugging in t = 0, P(0) = C
So C = P(0) or the initial population in 1870:

P(t) = P(0)*exp(rt)

Now, solving for r:
r = ln(P(t)/P(0))/t

(Remember t = 1946 - 1870)

Which should get you about 1.6% for the Arabs and about 5.8% for Jews.

	25-03-2002 02:28									#102
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WAIT!!!! it's not a 40 year span?????

	25-03-2002 02:37									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti WAIT!!!! it's not a 40 year span?????

	25-03-2002 02:42									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: Ariel Sharon has yet to commit one terror act. Sabra&Shatilla was performed under his reponsability, yet a court has established he was not aware of the events. Kibye was also a tragic mistake, when Israelis blew up buildings containing ammunition after evacuating them of residents. It appeared that a group which hid in the basement of one building was not evacuated and they died. And so are most of the other arab states in the middle east. What about the 1000 people that where rounded up and executed awards? Their families are the ones taking the case to the belgium court to try Ariel Sharon for crimes against humanity. As for Demolishing homes, and murdering people using "death squads" is generally considered terrorism in the rest of the world. Funny how no country/group of people consider what they are doing to be "terrorism". quote: Give me a name of one not racist arab state in the ME. Turkey seems to be "reasonablely" sane. quote: If Isreal doesn't stop niether will the arabs. That's why we're trying to stop Iran and Iraq. yes i heard of the recent plans to bomb Irans nuclear test facilities, but unlike Iraq they distributed them across multipul sites. But will it actually stop them? I don't think so, they might go to pakistan and just buy a few nukes. quote: For Israel to use such a weapon.... only in case of total annihilation. And we don't have such weapons btw. It's a reasearch reactor we have in Dimona. Bs they where openly talking about nuking arab countries if they so much as one city was in danger of falling. Other generals have suggested nuking arab countries so there would be no more treats to security bla bla bla. They recently aquired the 3 dolphin subs from german which are to be mounted with nuclear warheads, to be used in a first strike scenario or defence. Some say this is the driving force behind what is becoming a arms race in the region. quote: You know, there are rumors of Israeli troops amassing near the syrian and lebanese borders. uh huh. No attack would happen overnight, these situations will drag out over years and years. Isreal is going to face a growing arab population in isreal its self and the development and comericalization of technologies that do not rely on oil. The USA is going to be over run by mexicans and latin speaking people in the next 50 years. (just look at long term population trends) That combined with the decline in the need for oil is going to mean Isreal can forget about a huge Aid budget from the usa every year and it will start to have to fend for itsself. As for the USA its policies will start to shift more to latin america. IE the only way your going to get elected is if you keep the voters happy and if the voters are latin americans.... Add to that China's and india's growing influence as superpowers. Imo isreal exists on borrowed time and if they don't find a solution to thier problems soon they won't be around that much longer.

	25-03-2002 02:48									#105
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There's nothing like a nuclear arsenal to ensure your existance.

	25-03-2002 02:55									#106
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Hmm nuclear weapons are not that usefull i street fights as I see it but feel free to try it on your neighbour Eli. I'm just glad it's not me.

	25-03-2002 03:42									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Eli There's nothing like a nuclear arsenal to ensure your existance.

You think that matters to fanatics?

	25-03-2002 04:04									#108
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quote: Originally posted by markusf You think that matters to fanatics?

Well, it depends who you are talking about. The Arab leaders are far from being fanatics.

	25-03-2002 04:41									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti anyhow, this vaguely reminds me of your post claiming the Zionist groups rescued only the rich people during the holocaust...

Offline magazine, Covert Action Quarterly, which has the distinction of being the only magazine the CIA has sued to try and prevent publishing . . . twice. http://www.caq.com but last time I checked, the site was down. I'll see about scanning the text in, but I'm somewhat what lazy, so we'll see.

Basic premis is that the Islamic Congress, i.e., Hamas, was funded as a cultural organization. However, it was hoped b Israel that it would become an alternate pole of attraction for Palestinians to the PLO. You may have noticed that Sharon and his fellow travelers are obesssed with Arafat, and yet don't say very much about Hamas, which does most of the bombings.

	25-03-2002 04:58									#110
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Basic premis is that the Islamic Congress, i.e., Hamas, was funded as a cultural organization. However, it was hoped b Israel that it would become an alternate pole of attraction for Palestinians to the PLO. You may have noticed that Sharon and his fellow travelers are obesssed with Arafat, and yet don't say very much about Hamas, which does most of the bombings.

Yep.
Israel and the Hamas is a mini version of the US and OBL.

	25-03-2002 05:03									#111
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Yeah, Arafat might be in power can hardly be omnipotent. I don't think he could stop most/much that happend even if he wanted to (I do belive he don't though). Meanwhile every damn wacko, Israeli or Palestinian with basic knowledge in the fine art of blowning things up gets a veto against all forms of constructive plans.